Boro team news
Starting XI: Dieng; Van Den Berg, Fry, Lenihan, Engel; Hackney, Howson, Silvera, Forss, Rogers; Latte Lath
Subs: Glover, Barlaser, McGree, Jones, Gilbert, Coburn, Payero, Coulson, Crooks.
No McNair? 😎
*Reason for Paddy's absence buried in the very last paragraph.*
I should perhaps take this opportunity to highlight the fact that the glaring miss mentioned by TL (my post at 16.59) was in fact in the part of Silvera after Jones put him through.
Completely forgot to include the link to the article:
*red face*
Watching the final episode of the Sky documentary “Mission To Burnley” charting their promotion last season.
Naturally the game at The Riverside where they sealed that promotion features but what interested me was Vincent Kompany’s talk to the players in the lead up.
He said that Boro were very good on the ball but that without the ball they are “a completely different team” and “don’t have the capacity to press” like other teams in the division.
The question is why?
Perhaps the reluctance of our midfield to leave the mono-paced defence exposed as we often saw the opposition easily cut through us. Plus Howson also lacked recovery pace too. That's why McNair at right-back is also a worry in that regard.
Hopefully, Dijksteel will be fit again soon since van den Berg as a well-built 1.9m central defender is going to struggle to get up and down the pitch - he looked shattered after one burst up the pitch and had run out of steam by the time he reached the box.
I'm a Championship 'consolidation' sceptic in that any players who stand out become sought after and likely to get better financial offers if they impress lower PL clubs. Building a side has become a thing of the past and the idea of make a couple of signings to add to last season's squad has probably passed - in truth you need to get lucky and hope a few players exceed expectations, otherwise you likely wouldn't have been able to sign them in the first place.
Watching the final episode of the Sky documentary “Mission To Burnley” charting their promotion last season.
Naturally the game at The Riverside where they sealed that promotion features but what interested me was Vincent Kompany’s talk to the players in the lead up.
He said that Boro were very good on the ball but that without the ball they are “a completely different team” and “don’t have the capacity to press” like other teams in the division.
The question is why?
Perhaps the reluctance of our midfield to leave the mono-paced defence exposed as we often saw the opposition easily cut through us. Plus Howson also lacked recovery pace too. That's why McNair at right-back is also a worry in that regard.
Hopefully, Dijksteel will be fit again soon since van den Berg as a well-built 1.9m central defender is going to struggle to get up and down the pitch - he looked shattered after one burst up the pitch and had run out of steam by the time he reached the box.
Perhaps it was midfield pace. Howson, Hackney and McGree are all very good on the ball but none have pace or are particularly physical.
More importantly, is it still the case this season? Most likely, yes. Silvera adds pace but not in a defensive way, whilst I think we’ve missed McGree’s guile in the last two games.
It looks difficult to get the balance right with the squad as it stands. Yesterday was better and Latte Lath looks like he will add some sharpness up front that will also help with the press but I’m starting to wonder as Deleriad has whether we need to tweak the shape to get the best from the group, especially if Akpom isn’t replaced.
@andy-r. “ but I’m starting to wonder as Deleriad has whether we need to tweak the shape to get the best from the group, especially if Akpom isn’t replaced.”
I agree it is beginning to look one dimensional under MC and as more teams adopt a tactic of compressing the play and defending deep we will continue to have the same difficulties in breaking them down; I can’t understand why McGree is no longer starting.
Something needs to change or else we will end up being a team renowned for retaining the ball but not doing anything with it and then being picked off on the counter. 😎
Well nothing changes, the best footballer at the club is on the bench, Mr Gibson had better stop picking the team ,he's made a fool of us for too long, after sixty odd years ,I've had enough, we'll finish tenth
@gt - I doubt that Mr Gibson is picking the team unless someone has evidence to the contrary. If you were referring to McGree as the best player footballer at the club, despite being "on the Bench" then I, too, was surprised he didn't start.
Too early to say where we will finish but if we are looking for promotion even at this early stage of the season it is difficult to see Boro being 9 points better than Leicester or Ipswich or 7 points better than Southampton and Norwich from here onwards. Of course Boro MIGHT turn it around but if we are going to have to wait a couple or more months for the new players to "bed in" that gap could be massive by then.
Despite the score, I really enjoyed yesterday’s game. Boro played some scintillating football at times. This looks like the makings of a good team. I thought Rogers looked good in the number 10 role (though I’m a bit concerned that so far this has been at the cost of keeping McGree on the bench.) Latte Lath had one of the best debuts I’ve ever seen from a Boro forward, causing havoc every time he ran at the defence, and putting himself about to great effect - except, of course, when he missed a one-on-one. I think he’ll score goals. He definitely has really good pace. Engel had a difficult first half against the pace of Thomas, but he improved noticeably second half. Van den Berg looked solid and composed despite playing out of possession.
Howson was my MoM. How we’ve missed his drive, his ability to find space between opponents and his terrific positional play. How we’ve missed his link-up play with Hackney. The two often combined brilliantly yesterday.
So, loads of positives. But oh, Sammy Silvera! He missed two absolute sitters late on, one identical to the one he missed at Coventry. We take one of those and we win the game. We should have won the game.
@clive-hurren an excellent summary. I whole-heartly agree there. Up the Boro and!
Well nothing changes, the best footballer at the club is on the bench, Mr Gibson had better stop picking the team ,he's made a fool of us for too long, after sixty odd years ,I've had enough, we'll finish tenth
What if that player has made noises that he’s unhappy and wants away? I’m not saying that he has but it’s at least a possibility isn’t it? If his head’s in the wrong place would you still play him?
As for SG picking the team - how likely do you think that really is, unless you mean the management and coaching team, of course?
@werdermouth I think we all generally agree now, that the only real chance of promotion from the Championship, these days, is,
A very good Coach, a very lucky Coach, a good Recruitment Team, that falls lucky and uncovers a couple of low cost players that turn out to be Top Notch at our level.
Promotion can be achieved, aka Luton, from the play offs, but the reality is “once in a blue moon” In fact, if the top promoted team from League 1 can add a couple of good signings, they probably have as good or better chance because they have the momentum and have probably not lost players.
We had our best chance last season and that in all probability, will not be repeated for quite some time.
This season was always going to be difficult. We have some good players, but not enough of them. The defence as Werder said has little pace,allied with the limitations of the midfield. When you think that Jonny Howson at 35, can walk straight into the team on merit, then that tells you that we have a big problem. We continue to get hit on the counter and punished for it. We cannot keep a clean sheet for various reasons, and now we have stopped scoring goals, when it was not an issue conceding one.
I am grateful to MC, for the football he gave us, plus the dream of bigger things to come. However, as much as the team has been diminished, he does appear to only have one plan. He sticks with that when it is not working, hoping maybe for a different outcome.
As most of us on here have commented, the McGree situation is hard to understand, unless there is a story hidden in it.
Silvera looks to have potential, but is nowhere near the level of McGree. I cannot believe that if he had been given those chances, that he would not of scored. Silvera did not even hit the target.
I also like Rogers. He has technical ability, can hold the ball, break from his marker, but can he score ten goals a season. I do not think so.
We have only played three games and may yet bring in a couple of good additions that can slot more or less straight into a first team place.
We need more pace, especially at the back, that is a given. Smith does not give us that. Dijksteel appears to be injury prone. I think a first selection RB is needed. Also somebody to replace Howson, Barlaser is not that man. We will not score the goals we did last season, so we need to concede less.
I have every sympathy for MC. I think he just may have been sold short on his promises.
@pedro - Nice one, Pedro. I suppose one problem we have is that we don't know WHAT promises, if any, MC was given by the Owner of the club. If he was given promises which he doesn't feel are being honoured, I guess he would say so - firstly to Steve Gibson and maybe if there is no adequate response, to the world at large. He is probably sufficiently confident in his abilities and the likelihood of his finding other employment after a really good first season in management, that he'd hardly be prepared to have the rug pulled from under his feet here. Alternatively, he may have a number of irons in the fire and, if they come off, the team may have some capable players available in a few weeks, before the transfer window closes.
Of course there is no guarantee that the players he would prefer WILL be signed/loaned. Even mighty Liverpool cannot guarantee that, despite having very deep pockets. Two of that club's targets have gone to Chelsea instead. But the Boro team was greatly improved last season by the late addition of loan signings and maybe, just maybe, we will see something similar this season. I suspect young and ambitious footballers may like the idea of playing under a well thought-of young coach, with all the medals to prove his pedigree, at an established club with good training facilities. But in addition to not knowing what promises may have been made to Michael Carrick, we cannot tell the future even until the end of this season's transfer window(s).
We may have to wait and see but obviously we are Boro supporters and, therefore, impatience is embedded deep in our DNA.
Off all the people running the club with higly paid wages, I don't trust Keiran Scott, he caused problems with Wilder and Neil Warnock which ended up in unsavoury sackings. I hope the same doesn't happen with MC. I have to say he has looked a bit unhappy in some of his interviews although saying the right words about the clubs hierarchy. We shall see.
It appears some signings are probably generic algorithm ones that look good on paper to be potentially capable of increasing in value as the player matures. Of course the problem is if these players can't hold down a place in he team then they're unlikely to improve and produce any return on the initial modest investment.
It's hard to imagine Hoppe will prove to be a good investment and didn't remotely appear to be a player Wilder wanted - neither it seemed was Forss but he's blossomed under Carrick and shown his worth.
Then there's that Payero signing that it appears neither Warnock, Wilder or Carrick fancy or indeed Boca Juniors - looks like we'll be taking quite a hit on that one as it has been reported as high as £6m that Boro paid and his current market value is quoted as just around £1m.
Although, that's going to be par for the course when most clubs are busy making around ten signings a season in what has become a general scattergun approach to finding talent - it's a self-feeding mechanism when the same number of players end up leaving every year due to various means.
On that basis Boro got lucky last season with the quality of incoming deals but sadly just fell at the last hurdle that instigated the current upheaval and need to find replacements.
Carrick is the head coach and will play whatever cards he's dealt - he's not the old school manager who used to talent spot - probably Mogga was the last Boro manager who would pluck out bargains after watching them on a cold wet night in some corner of the country or Europe.
Boro simply don't have the financial power to be in charge of their own destiny in terms of who they sign - most signings will be gambles of some sort or simply being on the end of a serendipitous loan deal of a surplus star in the making.
No manager will slag off his new players as inadequate if he's still planning to hang around for any length of time - indeed, Carrick is probably someone who believes he can make them better players. Unfortunately, there isn't the time to do that and gel a team together in the Championship when games are coming at the rate of two a week.
So we're back to getting a lucky break and getting some momentum and confidence that transforms an ordinary team into one of the best performing ones. Once you're on a roll in the Championship you can climb the table pretty rapidly as most sides lack consistency.
So can Boro repeat last season? Yes or maybe no - but nobody is that sure until it happens!
I believe that something has gone wrong with the coaching side of things, not, I hastily say, with our manager, that would be truly awful. But teams which we did regard as inferior to ourselves last season now very much fancy their chances, whilst still being observably poor. When are we going to field the 'kid' at centre forward. He is not one for missing sitters.
I believe that something has gone wrong with the coaching side of things, not, I hastily say, with our manager, that would be truly awful. But teams which we did regard as inferior to ourselves last season now very much fancy their chances, whilst still being observably poor. When are we going to field the 'kid' at centre forward. He is not one for missing sitters.
Bingo!
My last posting was a little over the top, I usually don't allow my emotions get the better of me, obviously Gibson doesn't pick the team,although he's been front and centre over many years when it comes to recruitment, both players and management,
I think the lack of interaction with the fans , from him,is a concern and leads to, for some , a lack of care at times.
My father used to say if the Boro were playing in the back garden I'd close the curtains, and sometimes I understand what he meant,anyway it's early , but we've said that in the past,and the next thing it's twenty games in. COB
I have heard on the grapevine that there are three potential loan signings being negotiated at present.
Let’s watch this space…….
OFB
Oh you do tease us so 🙂
I have heard on the grapevine that there are three potential loan signings being negotiated at present.
Let’s watch this space…….
OFB
Question for the hive mind...
Do we want experienced loan players who are clearly here for one season to add immediate quality and help bring up the younger players for future success or do we want up and coming young stars who will also replace our young up-and-comers but may make them feel less useful. Last year we went the young stars route and it really hurt the squad when they all left.
UTB
We need 2-3 loan players who would walk into the starting XI regardless of youth or experience - if our youngsters are good enough then they should command a start regardless of who else arrives at the club. Look at Hackney, he broke into the team at 20 and never looked back. Perhaps this year is time for Josh Coburn to force his way into the team - he'll be 21 in December so no longer a promising teenager!
Basically, I'd go for the best players available who have the required attributes needed, which for me would include a striker who can hit the target - though for some reason those rarely tend to be available 🤔
As mentioned earlier, planning on building a side over several years tends to get thwarted in the Championship - those who display quality attract offers while the older ones at some point become even older. I'd be surprises if either Hackney, McGree or Howson would be playing for Boro in the Championship next season - so we could easily be looking for another half-a-dozen first-teamers if 3 loan players arrive or more depending what happens in the January window.
Are they the same 2/3 PL players that Exmil mentioned earlier? Perhaps you need to compare notes! 😉😎I have heard on the grapevine that there are three potential loan signings being negotiated at present.
Let’s watch this space…….
OFB
@selwynoz - Good question. I suppose if you bring in on loan some other clubs' "up and coming young stars who will replace our young up-and-comers and make them feel less useful" then it MAY have a temporary benefit if those incoming are better than our own up and comers. But on the other hand it :
(1) interrupts the development of our own up-and-comers who are pushed to one side to make way for the loan signings, and therefore do not get the chance to develop, so removes part of the reason for having a youth system in the first place
(2) costs money (we already have our own players and are presumably paying them and the academy staff, but now have to pay the loanees as well. In addition, in some cases, having to pay a loan fee to the "owner" club if we really want that player)
(3) At the end of the loan period the loanee goes back to his owner club or might be sold on by that club, so we are left with nothing save for the contribution the player made on the field during the period of his loan. We have no saleable (or useable) asset at the end of the loan period but we DO have our own young players who will now be a year older without having had the chance to play where that loanee was playing. And we now have the gaps in the team previously occupied by those loan players
(4) Does MFC have a good academy system (not just one that supporters believe is good, but one which is objectively "good")? Let's assume for the purpose of this that our system IS good. I know we loan out some players to lower league clubs to give them a chance for experience and opportunities they otherwise would not get at MFC. But do we not believe that OUR coaches and OUR system can develop and improve OUR young players better than anyone else? There should certainly be the motivation to improve them because we would be improving those players for the benefit of themselves AND for MFC.
(5) If we give opportunties to loanees who do well here, we are effectively polishing up someone else's diamonds. If the loanees succeed here at MFC, we have effectively improved the asset of another club, maybe increasing the player's value to a level we can no longer afford to buy that loaned player at the end of the season. That certainly benefits the owner club. And the following season we are left with the voids in the team that were previously occupied by the loanees who have returned to their club or been sold on. Our players haven't had the chance to play, in place of the loanees so are either themelves loaned out or have been marking time at MFC. So the following season we look for other loanees to perpetuate the system.
Obviously the question isn't and "either/or" option. It may sometimes be in everyone's interests to loan out some young players (it was the making of Stuart Downing for those with long enough memories - but sufficently long ago that maybe it isn't the universal outcome people would like to believe) and to bring in some useful players to plug gaps in our squad that we might have this season. But surely it shouldn't be the thing we rely on to raise a currently-foot-of the table team to promotion candidates? A cherry or two on the cake, maybe, but surely not the substance of the bake? Maybe the club is relying TOO much on loanees to improve the squad and too little on developing and/or acquiring our own players?
I think we’d all agree that the Championship is quite unlike the EPL. Our division is contaminated by the dropping down of the (generally) wealthy relegated Premier League clubs in a way that doesn’t really apply in the Leagues below us.
As others have said, if any team in our division uncovers a gem, that player will start to believe he can make it in the EPL, where wages are so much higher and their profiles will be more widely known (and why wouldn’t they want to take that opportunity?).
I guess the same is true of Managers - find a good one who brings success and they become a target for bigger clubs, who want the same success. Loyalty to any club in the medium term is transitory - as is loyalty to a manager (particularly at our club over recent times). It’s all a bit of a lottery really and even if big money owners came along it wouldn’t be that easy for them to buy their way to the Premier League. Realistically, if such a person wanted to buy a club, would MFC be on their radar?
The overarching goal of achieving promotion from the Championship, at the exclusion of all else, means that being a top third of the league club simply isn’t acceptable to most supporters, although I suspect many owners would settle for that as long as the books could be balanced.
For me (and I think I’m in the minority), I’d settle for the Boro being a respected community based club who won more often than we lost, playing attractive football, particularly if we had a sound financial base. Getting promoted and knowing we can’t compete financially for players, with little chance of winning many games, where the only goal is to avoid relegation just doesn’t appeal to me. Maybe if I went to lots of games and could take pleasure from watching other team’s big name players at the Riverside I’d have a different view - I doubt it though.
I'm all for giving our academy prospects their chance but it's probably safe to say we didn't have any as good as Archer, Ramsey or Giles being kept out of the side by the loanees.
Whether the same will be true of the loan deals done this season remains to be seem - though the likes of Josh Coburn or possibly Joe Gibson and Pharrell Willis could deserve their chance but some positions are more competitive than others. Joe Gibson is 22 next month so should be pushing for a first team start if he's going to be good enough.
Though it's been reported that the current crop of academy players are supposed to be quite decent but maybe it will be next season before they're pushing the senior squad. However, it's not like the days of Downing, Morrison, Cattemole, McMahon, Wheater, Bates, Taylor et al when the academy was a production line.
I'd agree that the PL is a poison chalice these days and it's pretty difficult to bridge the gap for nearly all promoted teams but some do manage to without breaking the bank. Although, the odds are heavily stacked against clubs like Boro now, who have shunned wealthy foreign ownership.
Still, not sure how you become a top Championship club who win more than they lose without having the ambition to gain promotion. It's usually that drive and focus that enables teams to win more than they lose - otherwise attracting and keeping hold of your better players (or manager) may be difficult if they see a club just content to be better than average.
Indeed, it's very easy to fall out of the Championship if you're slightly short in quality and then escaping League One has proved fairly tricky for bigger clubs than Boro in recent times. So I think the risks of settling for being a good Championship side won't necessarily be enough to actually be one.
Football is very competitive these days if not ruthless - Boro are currently on their 10th permanent manger (11 if you include Steve Agnew's stint) since they were relegated under Southgate - only Karanka got to taste life in the PL and we all know how that ended.
So just one promotion to the PL in 12 seasons when we were actually trying to get there - I guess we already have by default become the club you aspire to - though can't claim that you've been offered entertaining football for much of that journey!
@werdermouth - Fair comment, Werder. It might be that the Academy reflects the team. The team in those days of Downing, Morrison, Cattermole, McMahon, Wheater, Taylor et al was at a different level to now and maybe the Academy was at a different level, too.
Can I repeat an earlier plea? I wouldn't wish to encourage any illegality here (Oh, no! Far be it for me to do that) but if MFC could only find a way to intercept the email account of, let's say. Brighton & Hove Albion and find out which players they are interested in before they firm up that interest. Or maybe have a quiet word in a Brighton shell-like and make a poilite request that they let us know which players they have been looking at and who have proved just a little below the level Brighton needs but who are still good and would still be a BIG step above Championship level, currently unheard of to English football at large and with a low asking price; or if they have found some found some 17 year old Maradona, Pele or Cruyff whose rough edges they'd like buffing up before those players turn up at the top end of the Premier League in blue and white next season... We'd be happy to help Brighton out!
@original-fat-bob. I like your source and await to see what transpires.
I wonder if Exmil has a similar list to you or were you just given numbers rather than names? 😎