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Wilder's window of ...
 

[Sticky] Wilder's window of opportunity to build promotion squad

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Selwynoz
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Looking at the finalised transfers and striker transfer targets - and assuming that Wilder has signed off on all acquisitions - it seems to me that the options appear to be experienced professionals who will lead the dressing room and never let anyone down or up and coming professionals who have shown glimpses of quality but not delivered consistently.

The logical response to this is that Wilder believes that he and his coaching team can substantially improve any players, especially young ones, that come into his squad and that he is prepared to show this.

Riley McGree and Isaiah Jones would be obvious examples and now Giles is already starting to turn it on. If he can do the same thing with Forss and Muniz, (if the reports are correct) selling Tavernier and Spence means that we would have the money left for a couple of major loan acquisitions for the end of the window when he can see exactly what he needs.

We have to also acknowledge some really sensible moves in the free transfer market. A top class centre back, a star up and comming keeper and a solid right back/RCB. All with no fee.

People have to realise that this is the future of MFC. We have quality youngsters who are probably 12-24 months away from the first team and we have to get through with a sustainable financial model. People who complain about Gibson are living in cloud cuckoo land. He has poured a fortune into the club and right now his major legacy would be to leave a measure of financial stability.

Regarding the midfield, I wonder if Wilder sees McNair as more of a midfield player than a centre back - particularly if he can find a left-footed LCB.

UTB


werdermouth
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Topic starter  

Philip

Reports do suggest Boro have made a £2.5m bid for Hoppe - who is yet again another gamble on a young striker needing to reboot his career.  Last season the obvious failing was a lack of a reliable goalscorer and to address that problem Boro appear to be signing two players in Forss and Hoppe, who managed to score one goal between them last season - you couldn't make it up!

It appears  more of a moneyball strategy in attempting to buy undervalued players due to lack of opportunity or form in the hope they will come good and increase in value - while what we actually need is players, particularly strikers, who can deliver on the pitch - especially now that Tav is leaving too!


werdermouth
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Topic starter  

Selwynoz

I think you may be right about perhaps McNair being more of a midfielder this season as I can't see any logic in keeping Dijksteel on the bench to accommodate him at right centre-back - it would be a waste of a good player.


K P in Spain
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Response from MFC regarding Streaming Packages:


“Good morning,

Thank you for your enquiry. I hope you are well.

We are just waiting for confirmation on a few things before we can release our Matchday LIVE subscriptions for the upcoming 2022/23 Season. Once we have all the information, we will release it on the website and our social media channels. I'd just recommend keeping an eye on the website/social media channels for further updates.

If you have any further questions in the meantime, please don't hesitate to ask and I'd be happy to help.”

😎


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werdermouth
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Topic starter  

Jarkko

I'm also surprised at the reported Tav fee of £10m plus £2.5m in addons - this doesn't sound to me like the kind of ridiculous offer that Boro claimed it would take to sell him - hopefully they at least inserted a sell-on clause as his value would rocket if he had a good season in the PL.


deleriad
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Posted by: @werdermouth

Jarkko

I'm also surprised at the reported Tav fee of £10m plus £2.5m in addons - this doesn't sound to me like the kind of ridiculous offer that Boro claimed it would take to sell him - hopefully they at least inserted a sell-on clause as his value would rocket if he had a good season in the PL.

I do think this is something that Scott is leading on rather than Wilder. We bought McGree last season as, clearly, a replacement for Tav when Tav went. I suspect that Scott thinks that Tav's value will decrease from this point onwards so the fee is the best we can get for him before his contract runs out. If that is the case then it is a classic "moneyball" tactic. We sold an academy product for £10m+, bought a replacement in ahead of time for about £3m and are left with £7-10m in profit depending on how things play out.

This is what Scott was brought in to do so I guess now it's time to hold our nerve and see how things develop. We are horribly short on depth in midfield not to mention our non-existent strike force. It does feel though that we might be about to have yet another "transitional" season.

Hoppe and Forss seem like good buys but I don't think we have room for two young projects. I'm sure Wilder needs at least one experienced, successful forward to lead the line and help bring on the youngsters. 

Right now, it looks like the team against WBA may well be

Steffen

Dijksteel Lenihan Fry

Jones Crooks Howson McGree Giles

Watmore Akpom

On the plus side, this is definitely a stronger first 11 than the one that started against Fulham last season.

Lumley

Dijksteel Hall Fry Bola

Morsy McNair Howson

Crooks

Watmore Ikpeazu


jarkko
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Posted by: @werdermouth

Jarkko

I'm also surprised at the reported Tav fee of £10m plus £2.5m in addons - this doesn't sound to me like the kind of ridiculous offer that Boro claimed it would take to sell him - hopefully they at least inserted a sell-on clause as his value would rocket if he had a good season in the PL.

Of course, Transfermarkt only gives a market value of € 4.5 million. So it is very difficult to say what is the right value. But Tavanier is still young and much more experienced than Spence,  for example. 

So does that mean we got a good price for Tavanier and a sky high for Spence, then?

Up the Boro!


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jarkko
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Yesterday Hayden Coulson commented about his time at Ipswich last season. He was excited about the move at the time, but says with hindsight Ipswich paid the price for their squad overhaul.

He said: "I enjoyed it and I was excited about the move. Obviously that was another club that was ready to progress, they signed a lot of new players and spent a good bit of money. It was something stupid, I think I was like the 14th or 15th new player and they were still bringing in players after that so it was a full new turnaround.

"I think from the fans' point of view everyone thought, because on paper it was a top, top team, especially for League One, that it would happen straight away. But if you bring in that many players they need time to get together and learn how to play the style of play.

"It was a carnage pre-season type of thing with that many new players in there. I think once you have it click with your squad, you know how certain individuals play, and how certain people want to play."

Of course we have not changed the manager at Boro after last season like Ipswich did. But this makes one wonder.

We have bought in six players so far. We still need three midfielders, three strikers and a left-footed centre-back. So that makes a total of 13 players. 

It can take a full season for our team to gell. I hope I am wrong and we will have a good start to the season. Am I waiting for a miracle to happen or ...?

Up the Boro! 

 

This post was modified 4 months ago 2 times by jarkko

deleriad
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Posted by: @jarkko

Yesterday Hayden Coulson commented about his time at Ipswich last season. He was excited about the move at the time, but says with hindsight Ipswich paid the price for their squad overhaul.

He said: "I enjoyed it and I was excited about the move. Obviously that was another club that was ready to progress, they signed a lot of new players and spent a good bit of money. It was something stupid, I think I was like the 14th or 15th new player and they were still bringing in players after that so it was a full new turnaround.

"I think from the fans' point of view everyone thought, because on paper it was a top, top team, especially for League One, that it would happen straight away. But if you bring in that many players they need time to get together and learn how to play the style of play.

"It was a carnage pre-season type of thing with that many new players in there. I think once you have it click with your squad, you know how certain individuals play, and how certain people want to play."

Of course we have not changed the manager at Boro after last season like Ipswich did. But this makes one wonder.

We have bought in six players so far. We still need three midfielders, three strikers and a left-footed centre-back. So that makes a total of 13 players. 

It can take a full season for our team to gell. I hope I am wrong and we will have a good start to the season.

Up the Boro! 

 

On the positive side, we haven't brought that many players in and we're playing the same system. Lenihan and Giles have had a full pre-season as has Smith. Steffen is used to playing as a sweeper keeper so we're not asking him to relearn. If we start with Watmore and one other up front then everyone in the team will be familiar with their role.

Ipswich last season was like a budget version of Monk. Million players coming in with no one knowing what the formation was or who was playing where. 

Even after losing Tav, we are probably still starting with a stronger first 11 than we finished with last season and with players who are, on the whole, better suited to Wilderball. I remain cautiously optimistic with the emphasis on cautious.


K P in Spain
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If we can get a good LCB, another good CM and ideally Alan Armstrong with Muniz, then I believe we have to be optimistic on what can be achieved this season.

The purchase of Forss and Hoppe are clearly what Scott was brought in to do and only time will tell if he is successful; Payero did not work out, let’s give these two a chance.  If they don’t and CW was not on board with the acquisitions then he will likely walk. 😎


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Ken Smith
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Middlesbrough FC have usually been a selling club throughout its history starting as far back as 1910 when they sold Steve Bloomer back to Derby County. For those who have never heard of one of Boro’s greatest strikers Bloomer only played for two clubs in his career, Derby and Boro. He scored 392 goals in 655 matches and all in the First Division barring two seasons, also scoring 28 times for England in 23 matches. But Boro were in financial difficulties having also signed Alf Common from Sunderland for £1,000, smashing the transfer record by £400 and Derby welcomed him back with open arms as no club could afford to buy Common who Boro would have preferred to offload instead of Bloomer. 

Fast forward to 1925 and Boro having signed George Camsell from Durham City for £500 were again in financial difficulties and tried to offload him to Barnsley for half that amount, but due to an injury to James McClelland persevered and of course Camsell scored 59 goals in the remaining 37 matches.

 If it wasn’t for the Second World War Boro would have sold Micky Fenton to Chelsea, but sold Brian Clough to Sunderland for £45,000 in 1961, Alan Peacock to Leeds in 1964, and in 1978 sold Graeme Souness to Liverpool, 3 years later Craig Johnston also to Liverpool and David Armstrong to Southampton, David Hodgson again to Liverpool, David Mills to West Brom in 1982 albeit for a record £500,000, Tony Mowbray to Celtic in 1991, Stuart Ripley to Blackburn in 1992, and Gary Pallister to Manchester United in 1998. And that’s only a few I can recall, so it’s probably no great surprise to offload Tavernier who let’s face it hasn’t reached anywhere near the heights of any of the aforementioned players.  

It nevertheless speaks volumes that only clubs who will probably be among the favourites for relegation this season are the only Premier League clubs willing to take a chance on Tav this season, but also an indication of Boro’s real ambition in wanting to reach the playoffs never mind the Premier League. Be prepared then for a mid-table finish and probably more Boro players to offload in the future.

This post was modified 4 months ago by Ken Smith

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Philip of Huddersfield
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I was hoping that Boro would have got a bit  more money for Tavernier based on the fee for Spence but on reflection perhaps the fee is not bad as Huddersfield sold 2 of their best 3 players to Forest for a combined fee of £10 million.

The 2 players were O’ Brien , a “box to box” player who covered a similar amount of ground as Tavernier - aged 23 with over 100 appearances  and Tofffollo probably one of the best wingbacks who scored 7 or 8 goals last season and has hardly missed a match in the last 3 years.

I am hoping that Boro will spend a chunk of the two fees for Spence and Tavernier on experienced replacements who we’d all be confident can handle the rigours of the Championship -  and not young lads who we’ve not heard of and are a gamble at this level. Regrettably I think future acquisitions are more likely to be the latter category - certainly Hope and Muniz fit into this category.

Finally, I think Tavernier will be a big miss this coming season due to the effort he put in , plus his versatility.

No idea what the score will be against West Brom - I wouldn’t be surprised if it was any of the three possible results and I don’t mean 1-0, 2-0 or 3-0 !!

Philip of Huddersfield 

 

 

 

 


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jarkko
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@deleriad Yes, we have a very good starting ten (if Watmore and Coburn share the other striker's berth). But who wil play in the front with either of them?

So I think I agree with you that the core is there. But as long as McNair is injured (he will be suspended vs. WBA anyway), we do not have a substitute for midfield (or attack).

So we are OK for a while. But terribly short of depth. That is what I wanted to say and it was stupid to let both Tavanier and Payero go without ready made replacements.

The wing-backs are there, the defence, too and an excellent goalkeeper. But we need time elsewhere.

But I am hoping for the best. Up the Boro!

 

This post was modified 4 months ago 4 times by jarkko

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jarkko
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Of course we have Akbom to start alongside Watmore against WBA. And Coburn can be used as a substitute. UBT! 


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Andy R
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The impending loss of Tavernier is a real blow and puts a bit of a dampener on what had otherwise been a promising transfer window.

I’m pleased that Tav is now getting more widespread recognition from the Boro fanbase generally but it counts for little.

I think McGree is a very able replacement but it’s the depth we’re really missing now, especially when we have a few players like Fry, Bola, Djiksteel and Watmore who do tend to miss a few games through injury, and Crooks who had more cards than Clinton’s.

I hope that Paddy McNair is ready for the season after his own suspension is served as he appears to be first reserve for about seven positions!

On the other hand, Boro’s balance sheet must we looking pretty healthy in comparison with most of our Championship rivals. Last season’s cup run will have added a few million whilst the squad has been cut to around 17 players including two eight-figure sales.

I do think that our first XI isn’t far away - just that quality striker - but the cupboard is pretty bare after that.

Excluding anyone who hasn’t been given a squad number with the exception of Smith, Forss and Akpom who will all surely get one, the second XI is something like:

Roberts

Smith ??? Bola

??? McNair ??? ??? ???

Coburn Akpom

Obviously you could place Smith, Bola and McNair in a number of spots but you get the idea - we’re desperately short!


werdermouth
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Topic starter  

While we may have a fairly good First XI, the problem as I've mentioned before is it's on average a game every four days until the November break for the Qatar World cup - which will have seen just about half the season gone. This season is not one to hope to rely on your best eleven players as they'll likely be down to your best 7 or 8 if they play every game. Boro probably need at least 5 more signings if not more to get us safely through until the Qatar break - plus it will have to be the kids in the first few rounds of the EFL Cup.


jarkko
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So it is official now that Marcus Forss has signed a four year contract at Boro. Must be in the squad on Saturday now.

Did you know that Rainer Forss, the late grandad of Marcus was the top scorer in Finland with 15 goals in 1953?  Rainer also played in 15 international matches. He is also a Finnish champion as a head coach.

So Marcus is still behind his grandad at 12 full caps.

Marcus' father played at the highest level in Finland and is a coach now.

I am happy with this signing. Up the Boro!

This post was modified 4 months ago 4 times by jarkko

Liked by 4 people: Selwynoz, werdermouth, Malcolm and Powmill-Naemore
 
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exmil
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Posted by: @jarkko

So it is official now that Marcus Forss has signed a four year contract at Boro. Must be in the squad on Saturday now.

Did you know that Rainer Forss, the late grandad of Marcus was the top scorer in Finland with 15 goals in 1953?  Rainer also played in 15 international matches. He is also a Finnish champion as a head coach.

So Marcus is still behind his grandad at 12 full caps.

Marcus' father played at the highest level in Finland and is a coach now.

I am happy with this signing. Up the Boro!

It is reported the fee is £3m.

Come on BORO.


Liked by 4 people: Selwynoz, Malcolm, Powmill-Naemore and jarkko
 
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exmil
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A Marcus out a Marcus in 🤔 and £9m in change.

Come on BORO.


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K P in Spain
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Live streaming packages.  

Following my earlier posts the club are now advertising streaming packages on the website including an early bird package of £140 for overseas subscribers. 😎


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exmil
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KP, I have been on the MFC website but can’t find anything about streaming service 🤔 can you send me a link please.

Come on BORO.


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K P in Spain
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Hi Exmil

When you are on the MFC website click on Boro Live at the top of the page.  

On the Boro Live page click on Subscriptions which then brings up Boro Live Packages.  

It shows Match Passes and Subscriptions, you need to click on Subscriptions to bring up the video and audio seasonal packages.

Hope that is all clear and helps.  😎


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Malcolm
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https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/marcus-tavernier-middlesbrough-bournemouth-transfer-24612364

 

So it was Tavernier who wanted the move!

This post was modified 4 months ago by Malcolm

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jarkko
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Posted by: @k-p-in-spain

Hi Exmil

When you are on the MFC website click on Boro Live at the top of the page.  

On the Boro Live page click on Subscriptions which then brings up Boro Live Packages.  

It shows Match Passes and Subscriptions, you need to click on Subscriptions to bring up the video and audio seasonal packages.

Hope that is all clear and helps.  😎

The Boro web pages have a new layout from today. So I have the problem as Exmill. UBT! 


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exmil
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Posted by: @k-p-in-spain

Hi Exmil

When you are on the MFC website click on Boro Live at the top of the page.  

On the Boro Live page click on Subscriptions which then brings up Boro Live Packages.  

It shows Match Passes and Subscriptions, you need to click on Subscriptions to bring up the video and audio seasonal packages.

Hope that is all clear and helps.  😎

When I click subscriptions the only one that comes available is the audio one for £45, I am asking for a friend abroad as I have a dodgy box and can watch any match I want to for £45 a year (although I go to every Riverside match in the east upper).

Come on BORO 


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Powmill-Naemore
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Posted by: @malcolm

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/marcus-tavernier-middlesbrough-bournemouth-transfer-24612364

 

So it was Tavernier who wanted the move!

Which reinforces what I was suggesting earlier, that if a player has had his head turned and wants away you are best to move them out as quickly as you possibly can. So we I think we need to look at this as good business for Boro.


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K P in Spain
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Posted by: @exmil
Posted by: @k-p-in-spain

Hi Exmil

When you are on the MFC website click on Boro Live at the top of the page.  

On the Boro Live page click on Subscriptions which then brings up Boro Live Packages.  

It shows Match Passes and Subscriptions, you need to click on Subscriptions to bring up the video and audio seasonal packages.

Hope that is all clear and helps.  😎

When I click subscriptions the only one that comes available is the audio one for £45, I am asking for a friend abroad as I have a dodgy box and can watch any match I want to for £45 a year (although I go to every Riverside match in the east upper).

Come on BORO 

Exmil.  

It could be that you can’t see the seasonal video package because MFC are picking up that your ISP address is UK based and you can only have the audio pass.  

If your friend is abroad and he follows my instructions then he should see the seasonal video package.

I have just been onto the website and purchased mine.  😎


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K P in Spain
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Report from Sky Sports Transfer Centre:

 

“Middlesbrough want Muniz on loan

Middlesbrough have approached Fulham in a bid to loan striker Rodrigo Muniz.

However, Fulham are not looking to loan Muniz out unless they have an option to replace the Brazilian. 

Muniz joined the Cottagers for £6.5m from Flamengo last summer.”

Doesn’t appear from those comments that Fulham are actively looking to recruit and then loan Muniz out so that might be one to cross off the recruitment team’s list. 😎


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jarkko
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If you have a digital account at mfc.co.uk, you can see Forss' goal gallery at https://www.mfc.co.uk/videos/1b5b2080-4f8e-4e4b-abf3-8b7acddbc25e

Note, that none of the goal were scored by his head. He is quick and give the ball to his feet and he will score.

Up the Boro! 


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K P in Spain
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Posted by: @jarkko

If you have a digital account at mfc.co.uk, you can see Forss' goal gallery at https://www.mfc.co.uk/videos/1b5b2080-4f8e-4e4b-abf3-8b7acddbc25e

Note, that none of the goal were scored by his head. He is quick and give the ball to his feet and he will score.

Up the Boro! 

Thanks Jarkko, I liked what I saw.  He is tall and athletic and scores with both feet inside and outside the box.  Fingers crossed he gets the right level of support and he scores regularly for us. 😎


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