The whistleblower from Southampton is Darren Mowbray apparently who is Tony Mowbray's brother. Tony was a senior member of Southampton coaching staff who left after current manager started
OFB
@boroexile They did beat us on the pitch but only after spying on us. There’s no definite way of knowing whether that affected the outcome of either leg, so I don’t see why the games’ results should stand. In circumstances where, for example, an ineligible player has taken part in a game I seem to recall that the other team has been awarded a 3-0 win. That would make us through to the final.
The offence took place before the game, so any judgement should be deemed to be based on what happened ahead of the first leg kick off, not in retrospect based on the actual result. It’s the only way to ensure we weren’t negatively affected by the actions of Southampton.
I think the whole point of the EFL charge is that they beat us using unfair methods that were against the rules - so I'd agree with Martin that the penalty would be to forfeit the Riverside game with 3-0 being the muted scoreline.
Southampton started the game by sitting deep, which is not their usual tactic, which maybe they hoped would make it harder for Boro to create clear opportunities - it wasn't successful as Boro played one of their best halves of football but still only had a handful of clear chances.
According to reports by Sky, Middlesbrough will not be represented at the hearing and it will be only Southampton who will be facing charges and defending themselves - which means Boro will have no right of appeal at the outcome.
@eboroacum. Agree too.
Refreshing and nice to see some honesty and integrity from a Southampton fan.
I have been reading the comments from Southampton supporters in the Echo and many are extreme in their views; there is only one villain in this situation and it’s not Southampton! 😎
Of course the problem of expulsions appeals and rescheduling is complicated by the fact the season ends in 2 weeks and players head off on international duty or holiday - plus what of loan players and their deals?
@eboroacum what a beautiful read and perfectly sums up the reality from a Soton fan perspective
Like several comments in here have alluded, this is not about Middlesbrough having been wronged, but about the integrity of the sport and that affects all teams. We should be (and are) grateful and rightly proud that our ownership leads our club with absolute integrity. I would be mortified if I had to feel the way that young man and his Saints loving father do right now.
Of course the problem of expulsions appeals and rescheduling is complicated by the fact the season ends in 2 weeks and players head off on international duty or holiday - plus what of loan players and their deals?
Agreed. Short of delaying the final until after the world cup, which itself would have unfair repercussions in respect of preparations for the next season, it seems the only way forward is to elevate Hull, ban Eckart and his team from football for a year, absolutely hammer Soton with a huge points deduction - or even relegate them if I could choose - and leave Middlesbrough to pursue £multi-million damages against Soton in the courts. None of which is satifactory, nor adequate compensation for what we will never know might have happened. Soton's actions have made sure of that.
@werdermouth Absolutely. They set up and played, not to concede, which they did, but still continued to play quite defensively.
I guess though you have to give credit also to the Boro.
Also as this moves on each day, it gets harder to see a realistic outcome. As werder has posted quite a few times now, each one as more information evolves, his thoughts as too fitting in the Final becomes more and more harder.
Given the money involved, never mind the upset for the Hull fans (and in fairness to the other party) all I see is a diluted end to this.
The easiest option would be to ban Southampton and promote Hull.
The sooner it’s sorted the better, so the game can move on.
Forget spying for a moment and imagine Southampton had played an ineligible player in the first leg, with the same game and result as we saw at the Riverside.
What would the EFL have done when they discovered the player was ineligible? Allowed the second leg to be played, waited for the result and then taken action?
What action though? Banned the offending team, cancelled the Final and given promotion to Hull? Or allowed the offending team to play in the Final with a monetary fine or points deduction next season?
I just can’t see how they can allow Southampton to be promoted under any circumstances. And if that’s the case and they want the Final to take place there’s only one team who can play Hull.
I suspect I’m coming across like a dog with a bone about all this, but I hate cheats. I had a member of staff who lied to get a job, then lied about his long term absence from work in a scandalously immoral way and then lied about why we dismissed him. I spent an inordinate amount of time tracking him down and eventually taking him to court for the salary he’d taken from us. In financial terms it wasn’t worth my time but I wasn’t prepared to let it go. I also used every connection I had to make sure he never worked in our industry again, particularly as we weren’t the first employers he’d scammed.
And relax…
Just to echo what several of you have said in what has been a brilliant debate, I wouldn’t be unhappy if the EFL cancelled the final and promoted Hull, provided that Southampton get absolutely hammered by a really severe punishment. We’ll never know if Boro lost fairly and squarely, but lose we did. I accept that giving the so-called Saints a points deduction next season would not take into account the unusual one-off circumstances of the playoffs, but I do think that should be a part of the punishment package as well as being kicked out of the playoffs, simply because their offence is so gross and an insult to the integrity of the game. If spying against other sides can be proven, I would hope the EFL would relegate Southampton.
Meanwhile, I cannot believe that the EFL has taken so long to set up this panel. They've created a huge rod for their own backs by not being able to confirm that the final will go ahead as planned, and have left fans of Hull (and Soton, but who cares?) in total limbo. It’s unacceptably amateur.
I can understand those who have expressed frustration with all the time that this has taken but having undertaken numerous internal investigations over the years, it is important that due diligence is completed and reasonable time frames are allowed for all parties involved to make their case; failure to do so would leave the EFL open to criticism/civil action if parties involved take the view that due process has not been observed.
I am also aware that a number of people have commented that to throw Southampton out of the final would be an over reaction and that the punishment is disproportionate to the offence.
I would perhaps agree if, for example, it came to light that the spy had only been present for a matter of minutes before he was chased off and if all that he had seen and streamed was destroyed and had not been shared within the club. In such a situation and as a one off case then perhaps a lesser penalty may be appropriate.
However, it appears from the information so far that this was not an isolated instance and that it had become a common practice with other teams being targeted and as such brings into question the validity of the league positions of all the teams.
Given that this is the first identified offence of this nature which has been reported since the rule was introduced, then it is incumbent up on the EFL to take a firm stance and hand out a harsh penalty if the integrity of the league is to be maintained; anything less would be a dereliction of duty to my mind and leave the door open for other clubs to commit similar practices with little fear of the punishment they may face.
All in all a sorry state of affairs for the supporters of all three clubs impacted by the actions of a Southampton member of staff. 😎
Interestingly, the Gazette are mentioning a possible final date at Wembley of Tuesday 26th May if Southampton are expelled - surely this is a recipe for chaos as Hull have started selling their 35,000 ticket allocation and just how many of them could make the trip down to London for a midweek fixture?
If it has to be played midweek then somewhere like Old Trafford would be easier for both Hull and Middlesbrough to get to in a few hours - which may mean a reduced ticket allocation for Boro because of the reduced capacity but how can you expect everyone to make it to London on a Tuesday evening.
Was talking with some invigilator colleagues this morning about the unholy mess. One comment echoed what Mr Gill used to say “the table doesn’t lie” and that over 46 games Boro blew automatic promotion - which is true and we all generally accept.
The view was that the EVL have made a rod for their own back and by delaying the decision making process, there is no easy solution to be fair to all. Best of a bad job would be just play Hull v Boro over 2 legs, home and away.
The downside to that is the money lost with the Wembley contract and probably TV rights.
Time will tell I guess but whatever the outcome, I suspect it will rumble on for quite some time.
@boro-beckys-dad. “Best of a bad job would be just play Hull v Boro over 2 legs, home and away.”
Not sure Hull would be happy with that, why should they have to play an extra match when they have not been directly involved; it is after all a final and as such should be one match to my mind.
I think we all agree it’s a dogs breakfast. 😎
@k-p-in-spain - It’s worse than that Jim!
Every possible solution that is floated, is almost a non starter and disadvantages the other players involved which is it will be a fudge and will rumble on and on!
“Was talking with some invigilator colleagues this morning about the unholy mess. One comment echoed what Mr Gill used to say “the table doesn’t lie” and that over 46 games Boro blew automatic promotion - which is true and we all generally accept.”
That’s undoubtedly true but a legitimate way into the EPL via promotion isn’t only to finish in the top two. Promotion via the playoffs is a part of every season and all clubs in the 3-6 positions deserved an equal opportunity and level playing field to achieve promotion. There can be no doubt that Soton have breached the rules and shouldn’t have any right to take part in the playoffs. Equally, as the team who’ve been spied on, we should expect justice. It’s all very well to say we had two games to get to the Final, but one of those games was affected by the spying, whether by making KH change his tactics, disrupting training or unsettling the team.
I am surprised that the EFL will not allow MFC to present their case to the tribunal and will present the evidence themselves, which could be presented in a diluted fashion. Saying that it does lay the door open to Steve Gibson taking Southampton to court in a private suite (see Derby). I think the EFL have made a total shambles of the whole procedure.
Come on BORO.
... I think the EFL have made a total shambles of the whole procedure.
Come on BORO.
By EFL standards (by any football governance body from FIFA down) I think the EFl have handled this remarkably well... 🤭
@exmil. I agree this is a concern as it will be the panel’s interpretation of the evidence presented to them via documentation alone and not backed up by verbal testimony; there could be lots of valid evidence not even considered or the wider aspects of what has been going on not included in the scope of the review which would seriously damage our case. 😎
Well, now that the EFL has allowed both Southampton and Hull to start selling tickets for the final I can’t see any way in which they can now stop the final being played between these two teams and the scheduled date. What happens then if Southampton win? Will their promotion be cancelled and Hull promoted? If so what’s the point of playing the game except for TV money? Or will Southampton be allowed to go and earn millions in the EPL with just slapped wrists and a fine? Looks ominous to me and if it happens our Chairman will be apoplectic…………
@martin-bellamy - I don’t disagree with your points. If there was any justice then we would be all booking our tickets to Wembley right now as Southampton would have forfeited at least the first leg!
That the EFL have been inept is clear to see and whatever the fudged outcome is, I can certainly see Steve Gibson taking it further.
Breaking news on the Beeb site: "Boro want Southampton out of play-offs over Spygate" - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cwy2dg2w168o
I think that because the EFL, in their wisdom, did not lay down any appropriate punishment when they changed the rules after Leeds Spygate issue(s), then the Independent Committee can rule as they see appropriate.
However I cannot believe that there will not be any pressure against the Committee, from possible third party individuals, to give a verdict that allows the Final to go ahead on the 23rd, Hull v Southampton.
The implications of a delay for the TV Companies, Fan Tickets, Travel and Accommodation is immense.
The EFL have dug themselves into a big hole by not having proscribed punishment in place for any wrongdoing and need the Committee to hand them a ladder to get out of the hole.
@stircrazy And the main issue in the statement, is not being able to attend in person.
Refusing this request removes quite a lot of the pressure they would come under if Nick de Marco was stood infront of them.
NOTE: There have been different statements in media articles about the Committee Decision.
I believe that MFC will NOT be able to appeal any decision made. Looks as though the EFL already have their escape ladder.