So superbly expressed Len.
I think that between you, AndyR and yourself, you capture mist of what most of us are feeling about the club just now and our relationship with it.
I believed and still believe that Wilder should have been our main man to have been supported through thick and thin by the club. Instead I think he was badly let down. By his players, by the club's recruitment policy and by the contradictions inherent in the club's "philosophy".
I agree in part but, and this is a big but, if the stories coming out of the club are true, it seems that Wilder was crossing his fingers when he signed his contract and always planned to jump ship as soon as his mates at Burnley got rid of Dyche. The club can't stick with someone through thick and thin if that someone had a hidden agenda to to leave.
There's clearly plenty of blame to go around but Wilder seems to have taken us for fools. It's not that he was happy with us until we screwed him over; it's that he signed a contract in full knowledge that he hoped to be leaving in a matter of months.
After that went south with Burnley it appears that he was applying for every job going behind Gibson's back and stinking out the place. Usually when a manager leaves a club you hear from a few players thanking him but there has been nothing for Wilder. Even ex-players like Bamba who you might expect to hear a "shame it didn't work out" from have been utterly quiet.
We do appear to be flailing aimlessly at the moment. I can't say that Scott, Bausor and Gibson have covered themselves in glory in the last 12 months but, I guess, like sticking with a rookie manager, we have to commit to this path. The hardest thing for Gibson is going to be assessing whether he needs to keep his nerve or whether the people he has appointed simply aren't capable of succeeding. I think he has to keep his nerve but let's face it, if we're in the bottom 3 with 12 games to go, then it gets critical and the Warnock signal goes up.
I'm on the fence about Carrick. He could be a good appointment but the rumours about him wanting to bring along his bestie, Alex Bruce, a similarly inexperienced appointment, concern me. One of the huge failings with Woodgate was not providing him with experienced support.
Looking ahead to Boro’s next 7 matches before the World Cup with only 2 home matches against Huddersfield and Bristol City, and away matches at Wigan, Preston, Hull, Blackpool and Norwich it’s hard to see how Boro will gain more than 8 or more points and that’s assuming they’ll win the two home fixtures which is not certain by any means. So still in the bottom three with almost half the season gone, and a relegation fight looming. Maybe a season or two in League One will show what Boro are about with a host of academy players chomping at the bit to regain their Championship status.
Have Boro been in a worse predicament than this? Of course they have, but realistically time is running out for yours truly to see them in the Premier League ever again.
So for now I’ll show my allegiance to England’s rugby league, T20 cricket, and Gareth Southgate’s football teams in the hope that at least one of them will give me something positive to reflect on in my remaining years.
Great post Len which encapsulates a lot of thoughts which are shared by most of us on this blog.
I believe that the people who post on this blog are true supporters and tell it how it is and I was not surprised to see how Andy and yourself feel at this point in time.
I must confess that I too have been somewhat disinterested in the Boro results, news and Boro performances.
It has required a real effort on my part to write the leader posts and try to summon up enthusiasm to keep our support going when we are all feeling pretty down at this time.
I expect it has also taken Andy a lot of effort to write his leader posts too as we want to promulgate interest and support for the Boro from our fellow bloggers.
Hopefully a new manager, a few wins, a World Cup break when our team can get some intensive coaching will bring an exciting second part to the season.
I’m looking forward to getting my mojo back and falling in love with the Boro again!
OFB
I just wanted to say thank you to all who have continued to post some very forthright and pertinent views about the club we all love but which is currently testing our patience and interest levels at this time.
As OFB has said, let's hope matters can be quickly resolved and the team gets back on track so that the excitement and anticipation of games, which has been severely dented, returns. 😎
Thanks for the link to that article, OFB. It is one thing to have some experienced support and back-up for an inexperienced new manager, it is another thing to let him bring in whoever he wants to provide that support and back-up, and to have him rather than the Director of Football in charge of player-recruitment.
Really excellent posts just above from Len and from deleriad. Yes, we have probably all heard some rumours about CW talking without permission to another club or clubs but the reality is that we don't know what has happened. If he did talk to other club(s) like that, it would make a dismissal almost inevitable - a betrayal of trust to the club and the players (who have not, as noted above, come out in praise of CW after his leaving). On the other hand, if those rumours are not true, then we come down to the steady decline in performances and then results from several months prior to the end of LAST season, and continuing into this season, which points to something going badly wrong between manager on the one hand and the club ownership and the players on the other hand. If it was the slow decline which did for CW rather than talking to other clubs, then one might have expected people in the club to have been aware of the candidates available as replacement managers rather than being surprised by the sudden turn of events which ocurred, and for which they were not prepared.
Obviously it would be wonderful to see excting attacking football but, at present, it is more important for the team to start putting some points on the board, winning ugly if needed - otherwise relegation will become more than just a possibilty. From our current position finishing the season in mid-table obscurity would be a relief. If it was offered that as a "deal" now, I'd accept it as relegation is too horrendous to contemplate.
OFB
Typical Boro will give Carrick more power over transfers having denied that to Wilder. The madness that is Boro.
I expect the first interview with Carrick went along the lines of 'We have our principles as a club that the head coach has to work under' - when there were no takers maybe we saw one of those fashionable U-turns by the club... 'OK, if you don't like our principles, then we have others!' - nothing like dropping into the relegation zone to show who has the upper hand in negotiations.
It will be interesting to see what the final arrangement ends up as and who is part of the coaching team - let's see if most of the media speculation is close to the mark.
Good post Len and highlights the inconsistencies of how the club is being run and how it has lost sight of the main purpose of how it can best support the manager to achieve their goals.
Also, I'd missed the story about Hayden Hackney and his spitting episode when on loan at Scunthorpe - he's certainly has let himself down badly and should feel lucky to be given a second chance when there's plenty of other Boro youngsters who have been exiled for no good reason.
@werdermouth. I agree with all that you have said about Len’s post which was spot on.
I had also forgotten about the HH incident and just hope that having accepted his punishment, such incident will never be repeated and that he now goes on to forge a first team career. 😎
@forever-dormo There is a phrase "slowly then quickly." From the outside it looks like there was a slow decline in results starting around February which massively accelerated over the last couple of months. I suspect that if Wilder had had the full trust of Gibson (as Warnock did) that he would still be in post but it's clear that was not the case. However, I doubt anyone expected the sudden acceleration of decline plus what seems like Wilder working really hard to jump ship.
I suspect the club were planning on a change at either the world cup break or the end of the season but that the situation became critical.
I'm not sure that they are planning on giving Carrick more control over transfers than Wilder. The degree of control over appointments (both playing and coaching) is clearly a matter for negotiation. Clearly Carrick will have some say but not the final or sole say.
I guess we've all been burnt enough by the last few years to be very wary of how exactly this will play out. We have made the same mistake twice with Warnock and Wilder. If they do the same again with Carrick (assuming he does start) then we really do have to look to the very top of the club for change.
@deleriad - You may well be correct. But I hope the club DOES get it right this time or we will continue on a slow but inevitable decline into obscurity. With the financial problems besetting the country - well, let's be fair, problems are besetting MANY of the countries of the world including once mighty industrial power that was Germany and also Italy and others, though the problems pale into significance when compared to what is happpening in Ukraine - the issues surrounding football in general and Middlesbrough FC in particular may not be the most important. But MFC still plays a role in the lives of many who live in this corner of the world and others in some far-flung parts. I'd hate the club to become another, say, Southend Utd or Worcester and Wasps Rugby Clubs.
So according to the Gazette: Middlesbrough confident of wrapping up deal to appoint Michael Carrick as new manager - though that may now be towards he end of the week with Leo now also likely to be in charge against Huddersfield too.
Apparently, there was a problem with one of his initially preferred assistants has decided against coming to Teesside for "family reasons" - plus other members are currently employed so Boro will need to pay compensation with their clubs.
There should be no second chances with anything of a similar nature - I think spitting is regarded by footballers as the worst thing you can do to another player!
First things first, you are reading a post from one who has said for some time that no jobbing manager should have the power to trawl the market with the clubs wallet in his hand. Having got that out of the way, can I state the following.? If you then elect a couple of people who work for the club to pick and sign players for your squad, and find that they have as much idea about signing Good Young players before they have been noticed as the guy who empties your bins. Then you have a problem! Cue interview with player who enjoyed career with well managed giant club, was heavily involved with famous Manager of same, picked the team for said club in various finals etc. And now wants to start career as a manager, he will want to start at a "nice" level, i.e. Not short of money, not training with jackets for goalposts, he will certainly want to call in a few favours, sign a few famous names in their final few seasons, in this he must be indulged. This is the game as it exists, not as we would like it to exist. He is fortunate in that we have a working Acadamy, point one, we are not short of money, point two, our team is full of players who have no apparent purpose in life, and certainly no value in the market. Our loan out policy is broken, we will call back Young josh, a,s,a,p. I see him camping on the training field, because we are uncoached, period!
@werdermouth. I agree that if I had been in charge I would have regarded his actions as gross misconduct and he would have been gone.
That didn’t happen, he served his FA six game ban and any punishment that MFC imposed, if they did, so now we have to move on. 😎
Interestingly today’s pre match press conference, by Leo, was very short, 3 minutes 41 seconds and only one reporter asking questions 🤔. I wonder if Carrick will be at Wigan or at Old Trafford tomorrow night !
Come on BORO.
@exmil If he is not at Wigan, then he should not be at MFC.
If all the rumours are now deemed to be true and it is only a matter on time until he is here on Teesside, he needs to be seeing the issues at first hand and not by video.
Whilst he would not be my choice, I hope that when he does leave MFC, it is after a number of years and to a bigger club.
If he fails, then as deleriad stated, real hard questions need to be asked of our illustrious leader. Let’s hope it is not the case.
As with Bob's earlier post, I don't necessarily disagree with the points you make, but the club has control of the Wilder narrative and what has come across most strongly in the coverage so far is their side of the story.
The smears/ rumours that have been allowed to circulate and the churlish lack of acknowledgment that Wilder may have contributed anything to the club since his appointment do the club little credit.
And this is very much part of a pattern: over-egging in the media the qualities of new appointments and recruits; and dissing many of those who, for one reason or another, are leaving the club
When this happened to Albert Adomah of all unlikely people, I was motivated to write my own tribute to him on this blog in the absence of any acknowledgment of what he had achieved for us over many years by the club.
I think there is a compelling case for Wilder and I have tried to outline it. But it isn't a black and white issue in either direction.
For example, I thought it a jaw-dropping mistake for Wilder to publicly accuse some of his players on national television of being "unintelligent". It broke one of the most fundamental tenets of man management: that you deal with personnel issues behind closed doors rather than in public. And one has to look no further than this basic error to uncover why the team's attitude and motivation has been so questionable in recent weeks.
Yet even in this extreme case where the manager was undoubtedly in the wrong, I can summon up more than a smidgin of sympathy for him.
Because it will undoubtedly have been the case that he will have been pointing out the same basic mistakes behind closed doors to the same players week after week, and match after match without it producing any discernible results. For example Jones, for all of his qualities, continues to get booked almost every game for diving, kicking the ball away, time-wasting, dissent and silly fouls - in short a veritable litany of offences that could be easily avoided if the young man had a scintilla of self-discipline or common sense.
I suspected at the time that he may have been dropped from the starting line-up at Coventry as a disciplinary measure. When he came on in the second half he helped to transform a game that we were finally unlucky to lose.
Then he contrived to get himself booked for dissent, and thereby suspended for the next match.
What on earth are you supposed to do, as a manager, with that?
The same could be said of Crook's seeming inability to step onto the pitch without getting booked, even in time added on and with the game already won. Or Dijksteel's making the same positional defensive errors game after game. And to call Hackney's behaviour at Scunthorpe unintelligent would be a serious under-estimate of what in current conditions wold be a custodial offence if committed outside of football One could go on, but my point is that as a Boro supporter it is all too easy to understand the manager's frustrations.
In the end, though, blaming individuals may be missing the point. Andy was kind enough to reference an earlier post in which I argued some time ago that Wilder, like Warnock before him, was bound to run into conflict with the club's hierarchy because of the contradictions which existed in the club's preferred model.
As I mentioned in my previous post on this thread there is the contradiction between the different time-lines within which the club's hierarchy and its manager are operating. It's a common enough problem. It's what lay behind the dismissal of Tuchel under the new management at Chelsea. And it's there for all to see at Spurs where Conte openly speaks about the fact that he did not want Levy to spend his millions on Spence, and refuses to play him. He wants mature proven pros in their late twenties rather than promising projects because he knows that he will be judged on his results in the here and now.
Conte has openly contradicted his notoriously thin-skinned owner in a way that Wilder never did. And he has managed to get away with it. Why? Because Spurs are playing well. Conte is getting results. Conflicts can be papered over.
Which is why that Wider was discarded. Not because of his supposed defects of character or behaviour. But because, in spite the long-termism implicit in the club's model, the club was not riding high in the Championship. The manager was not delivering the immediate results, which would have made any character issues irrelevant.
The other problem in the Boro's current structure lies in the contradiction between managers who possess a long and hard earned experience and knowledge of the game and a club hierarchy which cannot match it. In particular the role of Director of Football should be occupied by a figure who can command the widespread respect of coaches within the game. In the Boro's case, it might be someone like Souness or MacLaren or in the future someone of the stature of Southgate or Mowbray.
It's important to see this as a structural contradiction because it continually becomes refracted as a clash of personalities or disputes over recruitment. But unless the structural contradiction is resolved the very similar problems which bedevilled both Warnock and Wilder can confidently be predicted to face their successor, whoever that might turn out to be.
Indeed the current discussions with Carrick most probably revolve around these issues, with the club having to concede some ground in terms of the current model in order to land their man. Whether this involves tinkering around the edges or meaningful structural change remains to be seen, but I remain sceptical that much will change on the surface until there are meaningful syntheses of the deeper-lying contradictions within the current model.
That may be some years away yet, and should Carrick be appointed, I do not envy his task. Particularly his immediate one of firing up a squad that has already successfully flexed its collective muscle in undermining a manager they did not particularly fancy.
Thanks for the match intro OFB. I think one sentence you wrote sums up exactly where Boro stand at present:-
"We have a team that apparently has no fight, full of defensive frailty, no real pace or inventiveness in midfield. A team that can’t score even tap in goals. A pedestrian and ball watching defence and no real leadership."
You then go on to detail why you think this and unfortunately give some good points about Wigan so the only thing I can disagree with is that you think we might win!
The stop/go negotiations with Carrick suggest to me that he did not agree with the coach only role and we have had to accept he will have more say about Boro incomings and outgoings than Gibson and his existing appointees had intended. Considering the players we have recently brought in or have allowed to leave I am not surprised if both Carrick and previously Wilder did not appreciate the efforts of our recruitment group.
I have no idea whether Carrick would be a success but our plight is now desperate. Home defeats (or draws against teams we should beat) together with very few away wins are recipe for relegation. At a minimum I am looking for at least 4 wins from the 8 matches before the World Cup break to raise some hope that we might be able to get a few places above the relegation places in the remainder of the season. If whoever becomes our new manager/coach actually gets us into a secure mid-table place with our current squad they will have shown remarkable man-management.
If the Gazette is right, then problems getting Carrick's coaching team together seems to be one of the causes of the delay - apparently one of his assistants turned down the move to Teesside for "family reasons" - if I was a betting man I'd wager that Rene Meulensteen's wife wouldn't have been overly thrilled at the prospect of spending the winter in the North-East given she's currently probably enjoying the beach life in Australia where he's assistant coach of the national team.
Like me, he's nearly 60 and given the choice I may have also rejected the warmth down-under for the 'opportunity' to set up the cones at Hurworth - I definitely know what Mrs Werder would have said if I'd mentioned moving to the other side of the world in winter to help out someone with their new job - the second word would have most definitely been 'off' and as for the first - well let's just say it will have involved the shift button and the top row of the keyboard!
@werdermouth`
Brilliant. I had to consult the keyboard to see what you !@£$%^&*ing well meant.
As amusing as the reason why Kwasi Kwarteng had trouble getting a flight back from America last week.
No one wanted him near either Economy or Business.
In many ways, the club have form in undermining their managers of late - remember Warnock remarked that he was dismissed in a manner he thought lacked class by Boro. Indeed, Woodgate was given something of a job set up to fail - originally, he was supposed to be mentored by an experienced coach but that fell through (rumoured to be Steve Round) and instead Leo was promoted to that role.
Even Garry Monk got the full treatment after he was dismissed as stories appeared soon after in the media with claims of dodgy deals done for his personal benefit - when in reality the club were more than happy to sign off on all those inflated deals under the guise of trying to ''Smash the League' by spending big.
There's been little said about why Wilder was sacked - all we've heard is that it was done by Kieran Scott with nothing but a standard sentence on the club website. No doubt the payoff included the usual NDA but perhaps the odd leak that favour the club have been entered the public domain. As you say, if Boro were in the frame for the play-offs then any indiscretions by the manager will have been swept under the carpet to avoid rocking the boat.
I think there's something of not wanting to upset the image that Steve Gibson is an owner who backs his managers and gives them time. The odd thing is that we now rarely hear anything from Steve Gibson - I don't recall the last time he said anything of substance to the supporters about his vision or hopes. He appears to have become complacent in thinking everyone will just accept he's doing his best - unfortunately, the club has been several years in flux and turmoil and many supporters are starting to wonder if their club has lost its way.
@lenmasterman Whilst I do not agree entirely with your two posts, what I have to say is, that they are both of the highest quality and would be quite worthy of being on the back pages of any of the more serious newspapers.
Well done, well written.
We are so lucky to have a number of posters on here with the ability to turn out well reasoned and thought provoking posts.
All I can say is that I was better at Maths than English at school. 🤣🤣
Nah. That just doesn't add up Pedro 😉
Apparently the coach that Carrick wants who is currently employed by another club who require compensation is John O Shea currently the first team coach at Stoke.
O Shea and Carrick were together at Man U
OFB
So we're talking about the dream team of Michael Carrick, Alex Bruce and John O Shea - could be time to hit that shift key again...
Some good news today, Huddersfield lost at home to Preston tonight so Boro at least won't be bottom when Carrick takes over - also Blackburn beat Sunderland to go top!
As ever, playmates, it’s been a fascinating and thought-provoking debate. I have to say the thought of employing yet another rookie manager and allowing him to bring in ‘coaches’ with very limited experience fills me with dread. Carrick, if we do finally bite the bullet, has a hard enough task on his hands to start with - in terms of shifting us away from the trapdoor. To expect to do it without the support of more experienced hands alongside him smacks of naivety and, on the club’s part, desperation. We can only hope that Boro have learned from the Woodgate debacle and insist he must also work alongside someone more experienced, preferably with knowledge of the Championship.
On the issue of Carrick perhaps insisting that he has some control over transfers, I think it’s worth reminding ourselves of some of the managers he has worked under: Ferguson, Van Gaal and Mourinho, to name but three. Let’s imagine for a minute he rang them up to ask their advice about Boro’s offer and the DoF situation. What do you think they all might have said? None of those three would have ever accepted the situation Boro seemed likely to put Carrick into, however prevalent the model is in football these days. Any manager must surely have significant input into who joins the club. So I, for one, am happy that he has taken a stand on this, if indeed he has.
Now, Boro, please get this appointment signed and sealed without further delay. It beggars belief, in our current situation, that we have thus far taken 16 days to reach this point and still no white smoke. It has become the longest running farce in football. Even now, if the deal is on the verge of being done, I’d like Carrick to get in amongst the players, turn up for training tomorrow and make his presence felt. Leo must fully accept that a new guy is coming in, and right now we urgently need inspiration and motivation. If not tomorrow, because he doesn’t want to interfere with Leo’s preparations for Wigan, then surely Carrick must get stuck in from Thursday? Why wouldn’t you?
Onto Wigan tomorrow. Because I have to miss our next two home games, and won’t therefore visit the Riverside again till after the World Cup, I compensated by buying tickets for both Wigan and Preston. Before Duncan scored on Saturday I was seriously regretting that decision. How stupid can I be? I was still regretting it at the end of the game, even though Boro had played much better second half. So, like others, I’m not exactly looking forward to tomorrow’s game. I’ve no idea which Boro will turn up, but with confidence low and away form dreadful it could be another difficult game. And I can’t say I’ll settle for a point, as we need every one we can get. I think we need a minimum of four from Wigan and Huddersfield, then we’ll need to keep that momentum going, but with 5 away matches in our next 7, I’m not terribly optimistic.