@deleriad That’s an eye opening post and I particularly like your comment that white people shouldn’t be telling black footballers how they can protest.
I suspect none of us on this forum has had to contend with the level of abuse and discrimination that black people face every day and for that we should be very grateful.
We take our white privilege for granted with very little understanding of what true discrimination feels like.
Rob Nichols who is the editor of the Boro Fanzine FMTTM said in the press that the booing was started and gained in noise from the England out of the area fans. The local fans from Teesside and surround heard what was happening and started cheering and clapping to drown out the boos.
OFB
@original-fat-bob So we’re the local fans all in one area? I’d assumed the tickets were sold via the England set up.
Is there a difference between racism and sledging? Not in my book, or name calling come to that. Nor referring to Sunderland being skunks, or Leeds being the dirties. Whatever happened in the past should remain in the past, that is the Christian thing to do. Those who derided Jesus Christ on the cross as “King of the Jews” were also racists, those who boo or hiss the playing of other countries National Anthems are racists. In my opinion racism has been universal in some form for over 2,000 years and religion is partly to blame. What a furore there would have been if the heir to the throne had married a Roman Catholic, a Jew or a Muslim, not to mention a black woman or even a socialist come to that. All human beings should be shown respect as true Christians are taught and believe. I’m a Christian but am ashamed at some of the things I’ve done or thought in the past, but as I’m nearing meeting my maker I know God will forgive me my sins. It’s a tall order, but shouldn’t we all follow His example? I don’t wish to get into a theological discussion with anyone, but although there have been some people in my lifetime that I didn’t particularly like I’ve tolerated them and can truthfully state that I’ve never hated anybody. I realise that it’s unfashionable to be a Christian these days or indeed a believer, but these are my views and I will take them to the grave.
Is there a difference between racism and sledging?
I think this is a really important question. To take a step back first:
The best explanation I have seen is the difference between racism and prejudice. All of us can face prejudice and may face anything from discrimination, violence or insults because of it. Prejudice can be grounded in religion, class, place of birth, accent, sexuality, hair colour: you name it it can be turned into a prejudice.
Racism is a world view and political ideology that is founded on the notion that homo sapiens divides into multiple biologically different "races" and that some of these are superior physically or intellectually to others. You can imagine a science fiction alternate earth where racism emerged in different ways but on our real world it was adopted by Western European states during the 1800s in part to explain the "cultural superiority" of our part of the world. Prejudice existed before racism and exists alongside it but racism itself is a political ideology. A white Anglo-American can face prejudice (e.g. travelling in Japan) but isn't ever going to be a victim of racism because racism as it exists in the real world is an ideology that is based on white superiority.
So, to Ken's question, sledging used as a way to try to upset or wind up an opponent and maybe make them lose their focus can draw on anything. When it draws on prejudice or racism then it really isn't acceptable. A taunt like "you're just a small town in Yorkshire" is annoying but well within the bounds of winding someone up. But say anti-Jewish songs against Spurs supporters or the monkey gestures in the attached image are bringing the worst of human bile into what is meant to be a sport.
Insulting someone based on their religion is prejudice. Making monkey gestures at a black player is racist because it is based on a political ideology that people with black skins are "less evolved" than those with white skins. There's not a hierarchy of badness here. Religious and cultural prejudices can be weaponised and lead to genocide.
So my take. You can sledge someone, taunt the other team's fans and there is a line between acceptable and not. The line is not really that fine and it's pretty obvious when someone crosses it. If you use racist slurs to taunt someone then you are being a racist.
Good (and typical of this blog) to have an intelligent, educated and informed response to the current issue that cuts through all of the crap, evasions, rationalisations and prevarications that have been typical of the wider and often shameful discussions in the national press and by senior politicians. Congratulations and many thanks.
Having started taking the knee what are the objectives? I fully appreciate at the time the reasoning and the impact and for an end to racism and the levelling up of opportunities etc. I fully support that but what is the actual end goal now and how do we and the players know when they have reached it? How long do players intend doing it for and at what point does it come to an end or is it to be a feature of football games for the next few months, years or even decades?
For any campaign to be effective it has to have a clear objective, an aim, a target, direction and leadership. I know why players are doing it and agree with the principles of it but I feel that it lacks a clear objective or at least one that we will know when it has been achieved. If it just simply continues as it is over time it loses effectiveness and any impact gained to date with it.
It's clearly intended to put pressure on politicians and perhaps the forces of law and order and raise awareness amongst the public generally but I'm not sure how measurable it is. If something doesn't have a goal then it eventually just fizzles out and usually with a whimper. People protesting in the past have wanted reunification of countries or freedom for a political prisoner or the end to a war (or Brexit) just as some examples, things that had a clear final goal. At this juncture I can't see that there is a clear end point with taking the knee.
Racism, intolerance and discrimination has been rife with mankind since the beginning of time. Ending it would be great but I doubt it will ever be eradicated, there will always be disputes and differences over borders, religion, ethnicities and politics to name just a few. Wars have been won and lost over it and sadly will continue to be the case usually with innocents being the biggest victims. Taking the knee will not end that but it may make a small dent in it in some way but at this current point in time I think the protest is just too non specific, losing focus and with that general support and eventually momentum.
I personally have suffered discrimination and know full well what it is like. I was brought up in Belfast and had an armed Police Officer stood protecting me and my School friends as we waited for a bus home from school to prevent people spitting at us and throwing things other than just insults. Getting off the bus meant a sprint home as quickly as possible just in case. I moved to Teesside just before my tenth Birthday to escape all that so that gives you some idea of just how old I was and the things I witnessed that no child should ever see or hear. As a consequence I believe in a supreme being, an entity of some sort or God for want of any other name but not religion. Religion is man made and has been the cause of pain and suffering that no God would have wanted (or at least I hope not).
I have been fortunate to travel the world and saw many things including spending a lot of time in Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana and Texas and fully relate to what Deleriad has posted previously. The white hoods and burning crosses may not be so visible but you can smell and taste it which is probably worse than it being blatantly visible. I have also spent plenty of time in the Far East and Middle East and even South Africa and again witnessed things that both heartened me and broke my heart in equal measure. The one key thing that I have learnt is that People are the same the world over, good and bad and that colour, creed or ability should never be a barrier but unfortunately discrimination does exist.
I personally have been lucky starting from virtually nothing, having a family tree that goes back centuries showing me that my ancestors certainly had no privileges either and in the main been subjected to poverty, subservient, emigrated far more than should have been and didn't live very long because of hardship. I fully sympathise with everyone and anyone disadvantaged or persecuted from whatever background they have come from but I genuinely do not believe that taking the knee is the answer. I also believe that it is starting to divide people (some absolutely and definitely due to racism) but once divisions start to show it is very difficult to get back on track.
At this point there needs to be a very clearly defined objective of what is wanted by those protesting otherwise what is the point, how can it be effective and how do you keep people interested and the protest relevant? Can you put the kettle on or get a few coffees or a beer while they do the kneeling thing? Why on earth as a Player would you sing a National Anthem glorifying imperialism, an empire on which the sun never sets, after just having taken the knee?
Taking the knee for the next fifty years will become commonplace at best and ignored and derided at worst. Pulling out of Tournaments to highlight injustices will have an impact and a major blow to Governments, Ruling Bodies and Sponsors. Getting embroiled over who boos and who doesn't ensures that the gesture becomes a sideshow. Britt Assombalonga, Les Ferdinand and others were right, its time for change and kneeling isn't achieving anything other than deflecting from an objective which brings me back to genuinely asking what is the objective and how is it intended to be achieved?
@redcarred I see your point about an end goal but, for the time being, the taking of the knee is, if nothing else, raising awareness of the issue. Would we be discussing racism on this Forum if taking the knee didn’t happen?
I won’t get deep into the comments about religion, although I do think there’s a massive difference between racism and sledging. I don’t have a belief in a god so which religion someone follows is of no importance to me. I definitely don’t think people should be abused because of their religion but I am aware that if you have a faith, then you are almost duty bound to think that anyone with a different faith is wrong.
I still naively cling to a hope that the vast majority of people are decent, caring individuals, although the older I get, the more I fear I may be misguided.
I still naively cling to a hope that the vast majority of people are decent, caring individuals, although the older I get, the more I fear I may be misguided.
We all have our likes and dislikes (I detest sea food restaurants) and things which irritate and things which bring amusement or pleasure but I think everyone on Diasboro is a decent caring individual unlike most, if indeed not all other sites. Like with Boro I think we may disagree on the mechanics of things but ultimately are fully aligned on what is right and how things should be or how we want them to be.
Reading some of the comments and views on social media sites I do despair at the state the world will be in come fifty years from now but at least it won't be any of my concern then. With age comes wisdom but I do like to think I was more grounded than today's young uns at the same age!
Just a point folks, why has no one, not a single person, requested an end date from the people who started this intrusion into the world of football (and it is a big world). Are our grandchildren going to ask us. "granddad, why do all footballers go down on one knee and stick up a clenched fist before the game can start" this would be, oh, I don't know, maybe thirty years from now? A little thought will tell you that there have been many true football matters which would have justified such a permanent symbolic gesture. The Ibrox slaughter,? the Hillsborough killings?, the Bradford deaths?
@deleriad @12:49
Some good post that, Deleriad.
You would like to think it is just common sense where the line, between acceptable (even if insulting) banter and offensive (even chilling) racial and sectarian actions and words, is.
Sadly it is not. Many people do not even realise they are being racist, simply because they do not recognise anything wrong with the belief they have.
I read the comments of one of the first coloured American girls to go to school in one of the Southern cities in that country. She reported that one little boy told her that his mother had told him not to play with her. In that moment, she said, she realised that racism is a learned behaviour, it isn't an instinct you are born with.
Sadly, and what we have witnessed over our life times, it really will take many generations before it can be eradicated, if ever.
It is all of our duties to stand up and support what we truly believe to be right. To ignore those espousing abhorrent views only ever leads to catastrophe. What happened in the 1930s and 1940s in Europe is still, just, in living memory. We should never forget where racial and sectarian intolerance can lead otherwise perfectly respectable human beings.
I don’t know all the facts of why Grovehillwallah has stopped contributing to this forum, but he has sent me another book ‘You Are My Boro’ by Christopher Combe which is subtitled ‘The Unlikely Adventures of a Small Town in Europe’. I don’t know GHWs name or address, so the only way I can thank him is on this forum in the hope he still reads Diasboro.club. To date he has sent me 4 books through the post and of course I’m unable to reimburse the postage to him. So many thanks GHW whoever you are.
There have been some powerful sentiments expressed on this topic and it's comforting to know that rational debate is still possible in such an emotive sphere. I would like to pose what appears to be a very simple question. Against what are people protesting when they take a knee? Is it solely the treatment of black footballers? Surely not. Surely, it must equally be against all racist ideologies but equally, as @deleriad so eloquently puts it, against the bitter prejudices that haunt our societies. Homophobia and anti-semitism are virulent and just as debilitating alongside other religious and social intolerances. However, the more that one adds topics, the more diffuse the impact.
@redcarred is quite correct. There must be a clear target and an end date and maybe that would then be replaced by a series of statements on particular days throughout the year when each of these problems can be highlighted in their own right.
Keep well everyone.
I suppose the need for a clear objective or an end date depends on whether you consider the taking of a knee to be a campaign/protest or whether it is in fact about awareness and reminding onlookers.
People wear a poppy for a few weeks or so every year to remember those who died during the wars for example. There is no call for it to define a larger purpose or have an end date in sight. Perhaps that also applies to footballers taking a knee if you think of it in a different way.
I’ve never really looked at it as a form of protest, more one of solidarity and awareness and must admit I was disappointed when Boro stopped, though I understood Boro’s position.
Many people do not even realise they are being racist, simply because they do not recognise anything wrong with the belief they have.
I'm a big believer in the rotten barrel theory. Whenever someone does something awful you often get people popping up to say "it was just a rotten apple" but everything else is ok. But if the barrel is rotten, then everything inside it is infected and its really hard to be good person. Think of it as institutional or systemic corruption.
This is not a political thing nor is it only found in certain organisations. One of the most controversial academic papers in Nursing is called "Killing us softly with their wrongs: Nursing academia’s ‘killer elite’ continue unabated". Think for a moment about how on earth people in nursing can end up referring to a 'killer elite'.
My personal belief is that we live in a society in which various racist beliefs and attitudes have been so normalised that we don't know we're passing them on. That's the rotten barrel into which we born. I think things have got better over time but only because those under the heel of racism have protested hard and suffered because of it.
Before his murder, polls in the USA showed Martin Luther King to be less popular than Donald Trump is now.
During the Marquette Park march, King was met by white counter-protestors who threw rocks, bottles, and firecrackers. One protester held up a sign that said: "King would look good with a knife in his back."
The black athletes who held up a fist at the Olympics were savaged by the press. Colin Kaepernick hasn't worked since he started taking the knee; he will know that there are no lack of white Americans with a gun who would put a bullet in his head.
When someone asks, "how long does it have to go on" or "what's the end point" or "when does it stop" or "will we still be taking the knee in 30 years" I don't have an answer. When it comes to protesting against racism it's not for me, a white Brit, to say.
One of Martin Luther King's least popular quotes is
Over the last few years many Negroes have felt that their most troublesome adversary was not the obvious bigot of the Ku Klux Klan or the John Birch Society, but the white liberal who is more devoted to “order” than to justice, who prefers tranquility to equality
The full quote is at http://www.uumidland.org/blog/martin-luther-king-jrs-challenge-to-the-white-liberal/
This final sentence sounds rather familiar.
many of our white liberal friends cried out in horror and dismay: “You are creating hatred and hostility in the white communities in which you are marching, You are only developing a white backlash.”
People boo taking the knee because they feel empowered to do so by both those in their circle and from those in their media of choice who voice opinions that they agree with. I think the concept that something is socially unacceptable in society has been eroded by the fragmentation of that society by the rise of technology and social media in particular.
People increasing exist in their chosen echo chamber, which is starting to define what is deemed right or wrong as recent political trends have shown how the notion of truth itself can be blurred or even flipped 180 degrees. It's no coincidence that Donald Trump was a prolific consumer of social media, who selectively mixed and matched the torrent of comments and opinions to build a narrative that amplified his own view.
I suspect it's now impossible to make a stand on any issue and expect to receive universal approval or even understanding. Although, perhaps football is still one of those events that still cuts through the fragmented society as it draws a wide range of people from many different social and political bubbles together. Footballers and other sportsmen still have a national platform in contrast to most other forms of cultural activities.
Whether they can influence the whole society to change or reset values is another matter - has a year of taking the knee led to any noticeable change in attitudes or has the news cycle long moved on to the point where there's no pressure on those in power to act. At the moment it seems the current PM in true form is just happy to side-step the issue and fudge the protests from both sides as he doesn't want to commit to seeming on one side or the other in order to avoid losing white working class votes.
Therefore, I expect footballers will continue to take the knee and those who boo will just continue to show their disapproval as in today's world both will receive reinforcement that they are right from their respective followers. If millions of Republicans can continue to insist Trump won the election despite verifiable facts then I'm sure the anti-anti-racism protestors will be adamant that they are not racist and will reject criticism until they are proved right by the stopping of the gesture.
Perhaps at some point the footballers may even just decide to walk off when they hear the boos in a nuclear gesture that enough is enough - that's the problem when neither side is prepared to back down you end up needing to either walk away or up the ante. I fear the whole situation won't reach a satisfactory ending unless someone works out a suitable endgame for the protest that doesn't appear like a climbdown and giving in to booing.
Just to confuse matters, the Scotland team have said they will not take the knee at the Euros and instead have switched to standing before the start of games - which manager Steve Clarke said represents "taking a stand against racism" as they feel the taking the knee gesture has become "maybe a little bit diluted".
I think the genuine cause of racism and taking the knee in protest started to become confused and blurred for many in this country when the Cenotaph was vandalised with spray paint along with a few placards and bizarrely Abraham Lincoln's statue in London was also targeted. Over a million sacrificed their lives giving their tomorrow for our today and the right to protest good or bad and it was Lincoln who fought against the Confederacy, freeing slaves and then being assassinated himself for his troubles.
Now I know only too well that Lincoln was no saint and indeed at one point in his past had slaves himself but in history he made a massive stand against slavery and paid the ultimate price. If you are going to target something to protest about then choosing the Cenotaph and Abraham Lincoln wasn't the best of moves. From memory it was also done of the anniversary of D Day last year or thereabouts.
I can understand the Scotland Players deciding to do something different.
Some very interesting posts on this thread and, as always, I greatly appreciate the tone of the debate and the nuanced thoughts which have been expressed.
Maybe we shouldn’t forget that we’ve had our own example of racist abuse at our club, with unsavoury comments directed to one of our supporters on social media - a supporter who clearly loves the Boro but has attracted the ire of a few racist characters. I think racism is far more widespread in our population than we imagine. It makes me very sad but I don’t have a solution.
The cricketers are doing a different method of support by just applauding and the crowd joining in.
seems to be working just fine
OFB
As Frankie Exclaimed all those years ago: "when two tribes go to war one is all that you can score"
Fighting racism or indeed any type of discrimination or cause needs unity. Having spent a lot of time in Germany with work over the years I came across the following which stuck with me:
"Divide and rule the Politician cries, unite and lead is the watchword of the wise" - Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
Many people do not even realise they are being racist, simply because they do not recognise anything wrong with the belief they have.
I'm a big believer in the rotten barrel theory. Whenever someone does something awful you often get people popping up to say "it was just a rotten apple" but everything else is ok. But if the barrel is rotten, then everything inside it is infected and its really hard to be good person. Think of it as institutional or systemic corruption.
That's exactly my point. Each rotten apple passes on the rot to the next generation in his/her barrel which is why it will take generations to eradicate the rot, if at all.
And that is all the more reason that we have to make sure our opinion is known at every opportunity, to contribute to the education of those blighted by the rot.
I know why the players are taking the knee and I support them in doing so and will gladly drown the boos in applause everytime.
If others want to stand I will stand with them and applaud them.
If others want to form a circle and applaud, I will join in their applause.
What I won't do is to join in the insidious nit picking over what someone's gesture is meant to signify, when it had been adequately explained why the gesture is being made.
Is it a perfect gesture? Probably not.
Is it a perfect response? Probably not.
I am I perfect in my reaction? Probably not.
Do I think that it is important to make my opinion heard? Absolutely.
@powmillnaemore I couldn’t agree with you more. I’ll repeat what I said at the start of this thread - if you boo the players taking a knee, you’re a racist.
I see Scotland have now decided to take the knee when they play England but will continue to take a stand in their other games. Sadly I can see the entire tournament becoming mired in who took a knee, who took a stand and who didn't or if some did and some didn't.
My views fully align with John Barnes on the issue I'm afraid rather than Gareth despite him being one of our own. I hope that those who have an issue with it remain quiet and let football do the talking but I can't see it.
A few months ago I posted that I was born in India and my family emigrated to the UK (following India's independence) when I was a baby. Although it was never talked about by my parents, I thought my colour indicated that I was partly Indian and to check this, a few years ago, I had a DNA test which showed that I am 46% Indian. The other 54% is a mixture of various European countries which did not surprise me from my own surname and the few details I know about my ancestors non-English looking names. I would have liked to know more of the family history but birth/marriage records in India in the 1940s and earlier are impossible to trace unless you know place names and dates. (I don't have a birth certificate but my Catholic church baptism certificate has always been accepted in the UK!)
I was racially abused at my schools in Middlesbrough in the 1950s and 1960s and at other times as I grew up which destroyed my self confidence and led to about 14 years of bouts of depression. I eventually found that the best way I could survive was to talk myself down into a job as a clerical officer in the Civil Service (although I have an Electrical Engineering degree) and I clung on to it for over 30 years. I also kept non-work social contact to a minimum. I have now lived alone for over 45 years and do not have any friends but I have sort of coped! A sad life brightened only by Boro wins.
Do I support taking the knee before football matches? It does send a message though I suspect that most of those with racist views will easily ignore it. I don't think all those that boo are racists. The association with "Black Lives Matter" has inevitably entangled the footballers' demonstration with the BLM(UK) political movement and I think this should have been foreseen by the organisers especially when there have been violent demonstrations under the BLM flag. I had some time ago looked up what BLM(UK) stood for and was surprised that they started off by assuring people that all the organisers were black (either African or West Indian origin). My first thought was that this was itself racist as it meant that they did not consider abuse suffered by those of non-African origin mattered but it can't be racist because the accepted view seems to be that only white people can be racist. Personally I would not boo or clap as I think it is an ineffective gesture (and I go to watch football). The way to stop racial abuse at football matches has to be the arrest of offenders with fines and and bans from attending matches.
@david-in-cumbriadavid-in-cumbria
great post, David. I appreciate your support for Boro. Really great, mate. Up the Boro!
@david-in-cumbria A really interesting and heartfelt read but you do have friends! All of us on here, granted we are a pretty motley crew admittedly but we are a little family in our own way.