I won't be a foot soldier in the woke war
It's a well written and, I am sure, honest piece by Humphries.
But it is exactly the unwillingness of people to speak out to be heard in opposition to abhorrent views or actions or gestures that gives the oxygen to those who hold and publicly air those abhorrent views. That is ultimately how the Holocaust and other atrocities down the history of mankind have been allowed to happen.
If people do not want to listen to what the English players and management have said publicly the significance for them taking the knee, then fine. But like I said in my last post, it is the insidious nit picking over the action and looking for deeper meanings and hidden agendas that is the really dangerous thing.
I am afraid this article fits into the nit picking category for me and is no more than a self justification for not wanting to be seen to have an opinion.
@david-in-cumbria A really interesting and heartfelt read but you do have friends! All of us on here, granted we are a pretty motley crew admittedly but we are a little family in our own way.
What RR said and written very large indeed.
I know that this doesn’t help and has nothing to do with racism and is probably frivolous, but according to the Oxford dictionary in another context Black = Dark = Dim = Pale = White.
Thanks Jarkko. Since Martin Bellamy started this thread I have been wondering whether to comment. Eventually I decided that my experience of racism would give an indication of how damaging it can be though I think, because of the small shy child I was, my reaction has probably been somewhat extreme. (There is more personal detail in that comment about my life than I have ever revealed even within my family.) Racism was never talked about at home though I am sure my parents, sister and brothers all experienced it. Back in the 1950s there weren't that many immigrants from India. Throughout my time at Catholic schools there were no other immigrants there so we were easy targets. Clearly nowadays, as well as there being more immigrant children, there are children of different races who were born in the UK but I don't know how well they mix both within there own groups and with white pupils. BLM demonstrations which are joined by the usual groups who also want to destroy the government system we have (for all its faults) just cause more trouble.
I think the more recent rapid increase in immigration, including white EU nationals, has caused a build up of resentment which will prolong the whole problem of racism. It is easier to take out this resentment on someone of a different colour though there seem to be increasing cases of attacks on people heard talking in a foreign language. Football matches being times when lots of people are together have naturally fallen victim to outpourings of this resentment from people who object to the changes they have seen imposed by successive governments.
That certainly resonates with me, Ken. I’ve been dim and pale my whole life.
It was a great post, David, giving the blog probably its most relevant account so far.
I think we all recognise that this blog is about more than Boro or football - one of the great things about it - and a safe space.
I was sad to read your experience but warmed that you felt you could write it for us.
Most of us will probably be of a vintage old enough to remember the following lyrics:
"What we need is a great big melting pot
Big enough, big enough, big enough
To take the world and all it's got
And keep it stirring for a hundred years or more
And turn out coffee colored people by the score"
Ironically some of the other verses would be considered offensive and racist today but the intention was honourable and genuine. Hopefully for mankind at some point in the future we will all be coffee coloured.
@original-fat-bob Interesting opinion. Can you tell us one thing about being woke that isn’t just a decent attitude to others? I’m proud to be thought of as woke. I’d be ashamed if anyone thought I wasn’t woke.
I certainly won’t be taking advice from a newspaper that backed the nazis pre-war.
Imagine there is a very large and powerful one party country that wages an unjustified war on its smaller democratic, but less potent neighbour, a country that really is unable to resist the might that this large and powerful country has but with which your country shares all the same values and beliefs.
Now imagine that your country is also big and powerful, but it is neutral. Because of this neutrality your country espouses it does nothing to help the small country that is being aggressed. In fact it professes to have no particular opinion on the state of affairs and does not say anything, but continues to hold diplomatic and trade relations with both of the countries.
As time goes by the aggressive state repeats this action against all of its neighbors and continues to expand it's own borders.
How does this position of neutrality look from the position each of the countries involved, including your own country and is there any danger in continuing to maintain equal diplomatic and trade relations with all?
Discuss.
I think the issue isn't that Racism is OK and that doing nothing about is acceptable, I haven't got that message from anyone on here nor doubt I would. The "problem" that some have is that they are not comfortable about what the message being given by taking the knee is all about. Is it just about equality, inclusion, diversity and equity for all or is it just specifically about injustices against Black People? I'd prefer that it was for all but if it is just about Black people specifically then I'm OK with that but a little disappointed in that scenario as an end to Racism has to be inclusive otherwise by it's very nature surely it's a little bit Racist in itself.
I get what Gareth has said this week but it read to me like closing the stable doors after the horses have well and truly bolted. My initial thoughts on BLM last summer were positive and supportive until things came out that made me think hang on a minute this is divisive, threatening and intimidating which isn't going to end Racism and in fact it had the opposite effect in the US and now here in the UK.
That Players initially aligned themselves with BLM is where the split started when people learned more about BLM the movement rather than just the headline statement. There does seem (especially over the last few weeks) to be a distancing from BLM but it's too late, much like Cummings Hancock and Johnson all trying to distance themselves from all things Covid related said and done with each other in a parallel timeframe. People will and have drawn their own conclusions (rightly and wrongly no doubt).
As in the situation with Northern Ireland you can't build a future on separate ideals and desires. Any future with a modicum of hope for success has to be inclusive and mutual, facing the future looking backwards solves nothing. We should learn from History but leave it where it is, in the past. Blaming people for something that happened when they weren't even born is totally counter productive regardless of how many "ifs and buts" are dragged up.
Getting back to Players taking the knee its very clear that there are many different views on it which in itself is down to it being hurriedly organised and arranged, never the best start for any campaign. There is not a simple "for it or against it stance", people from all walks of life have shades of differing opinions on the topic including the likes of John Barnes, Wilfried Zaha and of course Britt Assombalonga who I am as certain as I can be about anything in life are not racist.
Not being for something doesn't make you against it and nor does it make you neutral. It is possible to have a different opinion in solving a problem and to favour neither of the two alternatives much like todays politics. Being a Republican doesn't mean that you endorsed Donald Trump or all that he espoused. Being an Irish Republican doesn't mean you endorsed bombing towns and cities killing innocents.
If taking the knee is to symbolise an end to discrimination, racism and slavery then I'm all for it. If it's just a protest by Black people for Black people then fair enough, I fully understand and empathise but less likely to be fully enthused, everyone everywhere should be respected and have equal opportunity and rights. If its the full BLM principles then count me out. If those taking the knee (Players, Managers and respective FA's of all colours) intend to play in Qatar where daily lashings and Kafala exists for those enslaved in building the infrastructure and the Stadia then I am most definitely out and I will go further and call them all hypocrites.
Problem for me is that I still don't fully understand what taking the knee is really championing. Of course I can see the tip of the Racism iceberg but then what lies beneath and how wide ranging it is in contrast with Scotland players taking a stand which would appear to be less contentious albeit I'm still not clear if that is the same or different. Clapping, booing and silence will continue no doubt until something gives, bends or changes. Battle lines seemingly have been drawn which is counterproductive and won't solve anything.
Giving Racism the Red Card and Kick it Out have both failed to get rid of Racists in society let alone sport so there is no doubt that something has to change but it needs to be organised and clear. Most importantly it has to be backed up and supported in law and with punishments and consequences. Ejecting racist taunting fans should be followed up with custodial sentences, verbal abuse can be just as injurious as using a physical weapon.
Meanwhile simply walking off the pitch and abandoning games will have far more impact and like as not put the pressure and focus directly where and when it needs to be on the neanderthal minority with the overwhelming majority of fans less than impressed surrounding them. For the foreseeable however I can't get behind something I'm suspicious of.
When children’s Saturday cinema matinees started after the war they usually ended in a serial of what we called the ‘goodies’ and the ‘baddies’. Most of us took our toy pistols to shoot at the red indians, never imagining that we were being racist which looking back now we probably were. I was never aware of racism as I can’t ever recall seeing a black person in Redcar. At the time I was aware that my mother’s maiden name was Kraus but that she had been terrified as a little child during the First World War as several times my grandparents f house had windows broken by stone-throwing English people. Many of my male ancestors took the surname of their spouses for that reason. Later my wife always seemed a little embarrassed about being a ‘Smith’ when we signed in at hotels, etc. often saying it’s a ‘common’ name, whereas I used to say it was a ‘popular’ name, but would I have liked having the name Kraus during the Second World War, maybe not but nowadays it wouldn’t bother me. In fact I like Germans now, though football-wise my ancestral club Eintracht Frankfurt might be referred to as also a small team in Europe.
A great summation that I support. I've kept out of the debate and although 'taking the knee' seems to be organised but there is no co-ordinated plan by the powers that be giving a directive about should happen if there is racism on the pitch or in the stadia. No doubt if Boro, in a game, told the ref what their players putting up with and walked off they would be fined and deducted points. Even the referees don't have a directive or do they?
At some point some Football Association will have to make a decision or is that an oxymoron? The solution will never filter upwards to the hierarchy it has to filter down and be seen to be happening, that might change the game but not the protagonist who seem to enjoy a strange catharsis with their rantings.
I seem to remember that Britt our erstwhile striker had strong feelings about 'taking the knee'.
A great and thoughtful thread everyone, it's what DiasBoro is about and some of the hierarchy in the game should be made to read it.
UTB,
John
As John says, this is a great and thoughtful thread. Probably because we’re all extremely “mature” age wise it proves the old adage that wisdom comes with age.
I can’t bring anything new to the debate and I certainly don’t have any answer to the issues highlighted.
I’m descended from Irish Catholics but would never have supported the IRA’s actions. I was brought up in an age when we were taught that Catholicism was the one true faith. Luckily, we moved on from that thinking in my early years. We lived quite happily with neighbours who had different beliefs or no beliefs. My parents taught me that there were only good or bad people in this world, regardless of faith or ethnicity, and I preach that gospel to my family.
Like others, I fear for the future of our grandchildren as it seems that there is no “turning back the clock” on so many aspects of modern life.
Although I’m not a prolific poster, I’m a regular reader and I enjoy hearing the thoughts of the “stalwarts” of this blog and I do feel that it’s a caring community.
God (or who/whatever) bless you all.
@steely my background is a Protestant, Loyalist Father and a Catholic, Republican Mother. It was an unusual upbringing in that there was an Orange Sash in a Wardrobe yet my Grandmother on my Mother's side had smuggled guns across Dublin for the IRA to battle the British Army's Black and Tans (less said about them the better). Having such extremes from both sides taught me that there is always right and wrong regardless which stance people take.
Ironically the same Grandmother spent most of the Second World War some 25 years or so later feeding and caring for British soldiers stationed nearby in Belfast with her logic being that they were a long way from home and were somebodies sons who needed looking after. Considering her early life experiences with the Black and Tans and that rationing was in full force to be that generous was incredible, she believed the poor lads were starved by their meagre Army rations. Considering her earlier gun smuggling exploits bizarrely her Brother had been in the British Army during the First World War going behind enemy lines and reporting back with intelligence on enemy movements, getting some R&R before repeatedly going back again undercover.
During the Second World War my "Loyalist" Father was overseas on service and as I mentioned some time ago took part in the Pegasus Bridge landings the night before D Day. My Father previously had to leave school at 13 as his Father had died at the age of 37 from an illness he succumbed to while serving King and Country leaving the family left to their own fate, sadly not unlike the fate of veterans today.
Going to a Catholic school yet living in a Loyalist part of Belfast became impossible once the euphemistically entitled "troubles" started in the late 60's. One thing that hit me from a very early age is why one half of the people of Northern Ireland would to this very day dance, celebrate and abuse the other half over a battle won in 1690. To this day it is paramount to the problems of the province. Europe has gone through World Wars and countless other conflicts yet this remains a focus for identity for some which is why I have no time for those who drag up issues hundreds of years old.
One thing that I carry with me is that whilst my Maternal and Paternal Grandmothers came from polar opposite sides of the divide they both instilled in me to never judge anyone or treat them any different to how I would want to be treated. Judge them for who they are, not what they are.
When it became untenable for my family to live in Northern Ireland (being a "mongrel" and neither one side or the other) meant that I arrived in Middlesbrough in 1970. Sadly I faced abuse and discrimination of a different type and swapped one set of problems for another. My residing memory of those early days on Teesside is that having an Irish accent was a surefire way of getting a good hiding and I'm not talking being just pushed and shoved. I quickly learnt to mimic the Teesside vernacular to be safer. Things over the next few years became a little easier although to this day my accent of birth comes back when I visit my now extremely frail Mother.
During the 70's Police calling unexpectedly at my house was normal practice "we know what you lot are like and we are watching you". "Where were you last night, who did you see and what do you know". It wasn't too bad for me being a youngster but not much fun for my older Brother (ten years older than me) and my Father who ironically had given far more to the UK than any of those snivelling uniformed "officers". My Father had lost most of his unit that night along with a cousin who had been orphaned, cared for and brought up by his Mother, my widowed Grandmother and joined up with him at the same time for all the thanks and appreciation he got for it later in life.
I used to ask him questions about the war but he would never ever talk about it. When war films come on I would ask him about "the Germans" but all he would say is they are exactly the same as you and me and just following orders like any other good soldier. I only learned of his exploits after his death and reflect back on how unjust his treatment was after what he had seen and sacrificed. My dear Mother to this very day tells me that two wrongs don't make a right.
All the above makes me very sceptical in life generally and to follow the mantra of believing nothing of what you hear, and only half of what you see.
Just put on the match between Denmark and Finland and missed what happened but hope that Christian Eriksen pulls through and is OK. It puts everything into perspective.
Thank God (or your supreme being of choice) that it looks like Eriksen is going to be OK.
The Denmark vs. Finland match will still continue today. And Eriksen looks like being stabile.
Up the Eagle Owls!
I was South Bank born and bred. TheIrish Catholic element was the previous generation. My mother’s best friends in Slaggy Island were a Loyalist family and we all got on famously. As a child, it never occurred to me that there would be animosity to these lovely people. Ignorance is bliss.
The booing at the Riverside, fairly or not, will inevitably have tarnished the image of both the town and the club. We can argue all day about whether the locals or travelling England fans were primarily responsible, but the fact of the matter is that it happened literally on our own turf and that we will inevitably be associated with it in the minds of many.
Fans at the Riverside have hardly been helped by the Boro's own muddled, confused and contradictory attitude towards taking the knee. Both Warnock and Britt were against it, but for diametrically opposed reasons. You could sense Warnock's unease from the very beginning. An open admirer of "good old Boris", who regretted that "you can't say anything these days" about corporal punishment, he maintained that he didn't like 'the politics' of it, without elaborating on what that might be.
Britt, by contrast, like Les Ferdinand and Wilfried Zaha, felt that it wasn't political enough. How could he look his young daughter in the eye, Britt said, if he did nothing more than participate in a mere gesture? It was necessary to do so much more. So the club's position was a fudge. The contradiction between two opposing views could be masked by presenting to the players the agreement between both manager and captain that the team should not take the knee.
And so we had the embarrassment of our team, being one of a tiny minority (including Millwall,of course)who stood around whilst our opponents demonstrated their solidarity with their teammates in the face of a growing tide of racist abuse. That our own side contained so many black players only compounded that embarrassment. If this shambolic response was bad enough it was made even more incoherent when Kebano took it upon himself to break ranks and kneel on his own.
What all of this added up to was a fatally mixed and compromised message by the club on the crucial issue of racism in football and within the wider culture. It's a great pity because the Boro isn't a racist club. Like most clubs and the England team itself, it is fully racially integrated in a way that very few other workplaces are. And it has an admirable reputation for its community work and its youth programmes. The argument that the club are doing the hard ground work and therefore don't need to participate in public gestures seems weak to me. The two things are not mutually exclusive. You can and should do both. They are symbiotic, mutually reinforcing an important and positive social message.
Compare this muddle with Gareth Southgate's coherent, sensitive, humane, intelligent and above all admirably clear and coherent message. Taking the knee is not about politics. It is a simple act of solidarity against racism and intolerance. That is what has made it a mass movement, firstly in America and then here. It was provoked by a horrific, protracted and very public racist murder on the streets of an American city while the whole world watched. In the teeth of a President who tolerated and encouraged far right racist groups, decent people of all races, colours and creeds across America said enough is enough and stood and knelt together in an act of peaceful solidarity. Black lives matter was a simple statement of fact, but a fact that challenged American politics, culture and history.
The idea that a mass movement of these proportions was motivated by Marxist doctrine is the purest nonsense and a deliberate distraction. It is promoted in the UK by a press, whose drip-feed of racist and xenophobic scare stories day after day and month after month in the run-up to the Brexit vote makes them ill-suited to offer any reliable commentary on anti-racism.
Predictably since Brexit we have become a country in which racist attacks and abuse have become commonplace. Black footballers are particularly targeted. Abuse from the terraces, which had been virtually eliminated from most grounds returned with a vengeance. Online abuse has reached epidemic proportions.
So it is absolutely right and perfectly understandable that black players should say, like the Americans, that enough is enough, and it is wholly admirable that their white team mates should kneel with them in a public act of solidarity against racism. Racism within society in general, but racism in its particularly virulent form as it affects football.
That image of black and white English footballers in a multi-racial team kneeling as an act of defiance in the face of racial intolerance is one which will go around the world and will speak to the best of our values and aspirations. It will give hope and solace to kids and their parents as a representation of what can still be possible in an unfair and unequal world. An image in which we as a country and as a multi-racial society can take some pride.
And then there will be some booing. We know that. It is already being orchestrated by far right groups emboldened and encouraged by Brexit in the belief that they are supported by over 50% of the public. On this occasion it will be impossible to isolate, identify and punish these Neanderthals. They will be given cover, a veneer of respectability and considerable augmentation from bystanders who have been encouraged by irresponsible politicians, including the Prime Minister, and some national newspapers to (Oh, the irony!) politicise the event.
There will unfortunately be some truth in the perception which this gives to the rest of the world that we are no better than those countries which we used, not so long ago, to condemn for their terrace racism. An image of this country which shows us at our worst. A fearful, intolerant, bigoted and divided society that has fallen, in a few short years, far from the standards of tolerance, fair-mindedness and decency for which we used to be widely respected.
RR asks some fair questions: What is the objective of the campaign? Does it have an end point? Or does it just dribble away? The implied critique is that the movement does not appear to have a plan of action, development and improvement. It's the point made by Barnes, Ferdinand and Zaha. But it's not the main criticism made by the conservative press and some politicians, which is that the politics of the movement are all too clear. It's the Warnock- Britt contradiction writ large.
Southgate has made this very clear. England taking the knee is neither political nor a campaign. It is a simple uncomplicated act of solidarity against racism. Were it to be anything more than that it could hardly have commanded the support of almost every professional football team in the country for the whole of last season. I assume that it will continue for as long as racism continues to disfigure the game. The current hysterical reaction will ensure its continuity into the foreseeable future. It may transmute into other forms of action, such as walking from the pitch, in due course. But I hope that the idea that black players should shut up and put up with whatever vile abuse is thrown at them has gone forever, and that the solidarity shown by their friends and colleagues will continue long into the future.
If the applause does not drown out the boos tomorrow, it will be a shameful day in this country's history
@lenmasterman One of the best posts in this subject so far. Thank you for summarising my own thoughts so succinctly.
A tough game at Edgeley Park today for Hartlepool United as they play Stockport County with no visiting fans allowed due to Covid restrictions. A win of course will earn them a Playoff Final against Torquay United at Ashton Gate next Sunday. Pools drew 0-0 at Stockport in the league fixture earlier in the season behind closed doors, but with the Hatters being allowed 2,700 fans it gives the home team a decided advantage today. That surprise 2-4 home defeat against 10 man Maidenhead in early May might well have cost Pools dearly as 3rd position in the league would have had today’s match being played at the Vic.
However did you know that Pools manager Dave Challinor is the most experienced manager in non-league football having won 4 playoff finals and a 53.18 % win rate in his managerial career, and that Jeff Stelling, who incidentally starts his 4th set of marathon walks for prostate cancer research later this month at St James Park, has named his cat Challinor. I wonder if the cat is black! Once again today’s match is being televised on BT Sport at 12 noon, only two hours before England’s match against Croatia. What’s the betting that Pools match goes to extra time and a penalty shootout leaving some fans the dilemma of whether to miss the first half of England’s match - no brainer for me, Pools match more important and can also record the match from Wembley.
Come on Pools and start on the front foot!
And Finland have still won all their matches in any major football tounaments. We are in the middle of a one-win run after beating the Danes yesterday.
I remeber recommanding Mogga to sign the Finnish scorer Joel Pohjanpalo when I was talking to to him at Rockcliff Park. Pohjanpalo had just scored a hat trick on his debut in the Finnish League for HJK Helsinki, the biggest local team. Mogga promised to look at him but no tranfer followed.
Nice to hear Eriksen is stable and been talking to his teammates already. Quite a match emotionally. Most touching was the Finnish fans chantting "Christian " and the Danish fans "Eriksen" in repeat - most of the time during the break of 1 h 30 min before the match continued.
What a day with a happy ending. That Eriksen looks to survive. Up the Boro!
I have to say I think it’s pretty ridiculous that the Denmark v Finland game was completed yesterday.
I understand that the players gave the ok to carry on but many if not all of those players were shock and should have had the decision taken for them.
I agree. The Finnish TV was reporting all the time that the game was over and would propably be played today, Sunday. It was a big surprise when it was announced 30 min before the restart. None would have complained from the Finnish end if the match would have been played later. Not even the fans at the stadium.
Up the Boro!
A tough game at Edgeley Park today for Hartlepool United as they play Stockport County with no visiting fans allowed due to Covid restrictions. A win of course will earn them a Playoff Final against Torquay United at Ashton Gate next Sunday. Pools drew 0-0 at Stockport in the league fixture earlier in the season behind closed doors, but with the Hatters being allowed 2,700 fans it gives the home team a decided advantage today. That surprise 2-4 home defeat against 10 man Maidenhead in early May might well have cost Pools dearly as 3rd position in the league would have had today’s match being played at the Vic.
However did you know that Pools manager Dave Challinor is the most experienced manager in non-league football having won 4 playoff finals and a 53.18 % win rate in his managerial career, and that Jeff Stelling, who incidentally starts his 4th set of marathon walks for prostate cancer research later this month at St James Park, has named his cat Challinor. I wonder if the cat is black! Once again today’s match is being televised on BT Sport at 12 noon, only two hours before England’s match against Croatia. What’s the betting that Pools match goes to extra time and a penalty shootout leaving some fans the dilemma of whether to miss the first half of England’s match - no brainer for me, Pools match more important and can also record the match from Wembley.
Come on Pools and start on the front foot!
Well done Pools with a great save from Boro's Brad James in the 88th minute to keep them in it. One more hurdle against Torquay next week and they could be back in the League where they belong.
@lenmasterman Sorry, I had time to read Len's post only foday.
The best post on this blog by far. Best ever. I do not understad what went wrong with the British press that was once considered best in the World - at least I thought so in the 1980's when I was in the UK for the first time. Nowadays I wouldn't pay for a single copy and most papers are rated as waste as soon as they are printed. Litterally.
Sama applies to your recent Prime Minister. If Biden ranks him as a Trump clone, you could imagine the reaction he got in Europe already before Brexit. Not very human person even by political standards with 0 % of trust outside his own party or abroad.
Why the world has gone to this situation? The USA with Trump and Republicans, the Tory is just a Brexit party now and we all know how denocratic Russia is nowadays. Despressing.
Up the Borol
That man Rhys Oates again, from long range he sure knows where the goal is. I love Pools passing game, should definitely have had a penalty, but perhaps Gavan Holohan a tad lucky to not being given a red card, but best game I’ve seen Brad James have this season, always looked nervous in previous matches. Well done Pools, pity the final isn’t at Wembley, but look forward to watching you again at Ashton Gate next Sunday.
Also congratulations to Jarkko for the win last night in trying circumstances for both countries.
@ken Thanks, I ldidn't see the Harlepool match but very happy they are possibly 90 min away from being back in the Football League. A 50 % chance. Great for the Pools.
Up the Pools!