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[Sticky] Will clubs incur points deductions for breaking the rules

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Martin Bellamy
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@jarkko I’m sure Wigan would too. 


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Selwynoz
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The EFL is between a rock and a hard place because they have to think of Derby as well. If they impose the 12 point deduction on Sheff Wed for this season, they would have to do the same for Derby and that would render it ineffectual. However, a 12 point deduction on Derby for next season would be a real penalty.

From Boro’s point of view, next season is infinitely preferable as it potentially removes two promotion contenders.

UTB


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exmil
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It is reported that Wigan got an immediate deduction because of going into administration whereas Shef Wed (and possibly others) are getting punished for breaches of FFP which can be given for the start of next season. The cynical could say they then have all season to appeal and get it reduced or overturned. It will be interesting to see if Charlton take legal action.

 Come on BORO


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grovehillwallah
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This will continue to run and run.....

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53637173


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Redcar Red
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Wednesday took six points from Charlton this season. Would they have taken all six points had they not raised Capital in the manner in which they did? Maybe they would have had to have sold say Fletcher, Reach and Bannan and not been able to afford Murphy on loan from Newcastle in order to comply with FFP?

It's a valid argument and one that if I were a Charlton fan I would be furious over. Wednesday have been found guilty over the sale of their ground and the consequential "confusion". The advantage was gained in the season just finished and at the expense of their competitors who have lost out as a consequence. It seems very unfair that Charlton now seriously suffer loss of earnings while Wednesday get another chance of survival after being found guilty.

The Derby enquiry also needs sorting out and quick. If the EFL have learnt anything (extremely doubtful) its that the longer these things drag on for the bigger the mess and deeper the hole they are digging.

 


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grovehillwallah
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Wigan lose their appeal....

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53649840


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grovehillwallah
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Has to be the way forward for Leagues 1and 2 surely......

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53696424


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jarkko
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There is a good story about the Boro and incidents that happened in 1986. And what might have been! https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/30-years-ago-today-team-11784020

AV was in the Uni that time, but I was at Hartlepool with my girlfriend to see the match versus Port Vale. As was Stephen Pears, Brian Laws, Colin Cooper, Tony Mowbray, Gary Gill, Gary Parkinson, Bernie Slaven, Archie Stephens, Gary Hamilton, Alan Kernaghan and  Stuart Ripley.

Attendance: 3,456*

At least two spectators from Finland 😍 .

*Post-match mythology may have inflated this figure.

Nobody can take it away from me and my wife - we were there! The most important match in the history of Middlesbrough FC.

Up the Boro!


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exmil
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I see Derby have been cleared of all charges by the EFL.

 Come on BORO.


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werdermouth
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Posted by: @exmil

I see Derby have been cleared of all charges by the EFL.

 Come on BORO.

It seems selling your stadium to yourself is perfectly acceptable - I think the reason Sheff Wednesday were sanction was not what they did but more for claiming they'd sold their stadium before they had and basically falsely claiming income in their accounts a year before the sale.

I suspect this will be a green light for many club owners to conjure up some cash during the reduced income of Covid.

 


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Redcar Red
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Posted by: @werdermouth
Posted by: @exmil

I see Derby have been cleared of all charges by the EFL.

 Come on BORO.

It seems selling your stadium to yourself is perfectly acceptable - I think the reason Sheff Wednesday were sanction was not what they did but more for claiming they'd sold their stadium before they had and basically falsely claiming income in their accounts a year before the sale.

I suspect this will be a green light for many club owners to conjure up some cash during the reduced income of Covid.

 

Is it just me that gets the feeling that the EFL are going to face a few monumental headaches in the making after this decision. The new £30M loan by MSD Capital on top of all that would indicate that despite their selling of the Stadium at a massively overpriced valuation they now need more money coming in already. It hardly smacks of stability or prudent thinking in the current economic climate.

Putting aside feelings that the system is being worked, stretched and manipulated by DCFC to gain an unfair sporting advantage the end result could be the loss of another Football Club which would be devastating for the City and its fans.


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Andy R
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https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/58m-difference-middlesbrough-derby-valuations-18835544

Quite amazing that two supposed independent valuations for a football ground can be £58m apart, with one valuing it at almost four times the amount of the other. Not to mention, of course, that Derby's ground was bought by a company owned by the Derby owner, Mel Morris.

More amazing still that this can be deemed not to have broken any rules.

Presumably it is now open season for such transactions if wealthy owners want to do so, though I very much doubt that Bulkhaul will be injecting circa £80m into Middlesbrough FC.

This post was modified 2 years ago by Andy R

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exmil
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Another twist in the tail or is it a case of “after the horse has bolted”

https://footballfrenzied.com/2020/08/26/premier-league-seek-to-block-clubs-selling-their-grounds-and-leasing-them-back/

Come on BORO.


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Redcar Red
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I see the EFL have appealed against the decision of the independent Disciplinary Commission on Derby. It only relates to the second charge concerning its policy regarding the amortisation of intangible assets (player registrations).

My very limited financial knowledge gives me the impression that "amortisation of intangible assets" is a very grey area (or loophole in simple terms) at the best of times. The difference between amortisation and depreciation is that amortisation is used for intangible assets and depreciation used in the case of tangible assets.

It seems that amortisation can be useful in reducing tax burdens but also enables firms to show a higher value of assets and therefore theoretically more income on their accounts. 

Hopefully someone on here can explain this in more detail and what it actually means but I take it to mean artificial valuations may have benefited Derby from reducing their tax bill and also inflating their income thereby allowing them to possibly achieve a more positive outcome on their FFP measurement?


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exmil
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Shef Wed 12 point deduction is halved by the EFL, what a joke.

 Come on BORO.


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Redcar Red
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Surely they are either guilty of not guilty?

in other words they should be deducted 12 points or deducted no points at all. Another example of the EFL not being fit for purpose. Irony is that it has put Mel's Derby in a bit of a pickle now.


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Ken Smith
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We debated the points deduction for clubs going into administration as far back as June, and I mentioned then that 12 points deductions were sacrosanct for clubs going into administration.  But it would seem that there are no guidelines for points deductions for other misdemeanours. But it’s not only in England that the authorities seem to have discretion on the punishments awarded. The rules about playing ineligible players are different from country to country but rarely help the clubs opponents. A 3-0 win for each club affected by the offended club would probably suffice. Already this season in Italy Napoli have been deducted one point (a Federation decision) although I don’t know for what reason. I recall Juventus being stripped of their league title in the past for corruption, also Marseille in the past, but neither club was demoted. What about the situation with Tottenham in 1994 when they were fined heavily and banned from the FA Cup for financial irregularities, but had the fine reduced by half and reinstated in the FA Cup on appeal. Or Manchester City being banned from Europe but being reinstated on appeal. We all knew that Spurs and Manchester City would be reinstated, and that Boro would not have their 3 point deduction rescinded. One law for the rich, another for the rest although Scotland took the courageous decision to relegate Glasgow Rangers 3 divisions and their decision was upheld.

It’s not only football that is corrupt. Durham CCC were demoted to Division 2 of the County Championship a few years ago and also deducted points in all competitions for the following season for financial irregularities. In Super League Wigan were saved from relegation several years back with a paltry 2 point deduction for breaking the salary cap instead of a more realistic 6 point deduction which would have relegated them. If it had been Wakefield or Castleford they would have been instantly relegated. Now we have in Salford City Reds being deducted 3 wins for irregularities as far back as 2013 although it doesn’t affect  their position as they can’t be relegated or participate in the playoffs. I realise there is always a right of appeal, but why should it take so long? If there was a proper situation of the punishment fitting the crime at the time and the possibility of punishments being increased instead of decreased that might go one way of stopping corruption altogether, or is that a pipe dream?


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Ken Smith
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Hartlepools United won again last night. With Torquay seemingly running away with the National League and only one team to gain automatic promotion, Pools appear to be well placed in a 7 club playoff system to regain their Football League status, at least I hope so.

Well done to Darlington in reaching the last 8 of the FA Trophy, a cup they won at Wembley 10 years ago by beating Mansfield 1-0. Sadly though I anticipate that soon the two divisions of the Northern League will eventually be declared null and void for the second consecutive season thwarting again the hopes of Stockton Town and Redcar Athletic.

 

 


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Ken Smith
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The pertinent question over the recent collapse of the European Super League proposals is will the top six clubs be punished for deigning to think that they could ride roughshod over the supporters of their clubs in putting European football ahead of domestic football. Would the average supporter place greater value on winning the Premier League title for instance than the Champions League? I think we got the answer last season with the joy of Liverpool fans winning the former last season. If Boro had been in that situation I would certainly love Boro to be Premier League champions than European champions. To my way way of thinking becoming champions of any domestic league would take precedent. I realise that Boro’s EUFA exploits raised the profile of ‘a little town in Europe’ but I would suggest there was greater joy in Boro winning the League Cup than there would have been if Boro had beaten Sevilla.

There needs to be some punishment or retribution for what has gone on this week to stop something similar happening again. Relegation or deduction of points would hurt the supporters and players, the very people who don’t deserve it. However if the Premier League were to ban the so-called super six from entering the Champions League and EUFA League for next season and replace them with the likes of Leicester, West Ham, Everton, Leeds, Villa and Wolves that might be a deterrent to stop something similar happening again. That would hit the owners where it hurts and if that causes some of them to withdraw their financial support, so be it.

This post was modified 1 year ago by Ken Smith

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Ken Smith
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As we reach the half-way point of the Football season in Europe there were some interesting results in France with Bordeaux and Clermont both moving out of the relegation positions with wins, and even Metz beating Loriient 4-1 to overtake them in the match between the two relegation placed clubs to make the situation of only 2 points separating 5 of the 6 bottom clubs. However moneybags Paris St Germain have now established a 13 point lead over Olympique Marseille at the top of the League.

In Spain Real Madrid won the the local derby against Athletico to establish an 8 point lead over Sevilla although Boro’s conquerors in Eindhoven do have a game in hand. Meanwhile cash-strapped Barcelona could only draw away to Osasuna and are now a massive 18 points behind Real and in 8th position. The relegation match between Alaves and Getafe however ended in a 1-1 draw. 

In Italy early pace-setters AC Milan could only draw away to 10 man Udinese and forfeited their lead to neighbours Inter who beat Cagliari 4-0.
The other early pace-setters Napoli lost at home to Boro favourite Massimo Maccarone’s former club Empoli and have now taken only one point from their last 3 matches. Meanwhile former giants Juventus continue to struggle   after being held to a draw at Venezia and are now 12 points adrift of the leaders.

In Germany Bayern Munich have extended their lead at the top after a hard fought 2-1 home win over Mainz, whilst Borussia Dortmund were held to a draw by mid-table Bochum and are now 6 points behind the Bavarian club. Meanwhile another Bavarian club Guerther Furth won their first league match of the season after 15 matches 1-0 against 6th placed Union Berlin, but still are well adrift at the bottom of the League with only 4 points. Meanwhile 3 of the bottom 5 clubs Hertha Berlin. Augsburg and Stuttgart all won to enhance their hopes of avoiding relegation.

In Holland the biggest shock was the home defeat of Ajax Amsterdam 1-2 at home to AZ Alkmaar to allow PSV Eindhoven to overtake them as League leaders. However similar to England’s Premier League it’s tight at the top with only one point separating the top 3 which also includes Feyenoord Rotterdam. At the bottom after 4 successive defeats Fortuna Sittard managed to win 1-0 at bottom club PEC Zwolle to climb out of the bottom 2.

In Belgium newcomers Royale Union continued their fine form as did FC Brugge with wins although the former maintain their 4 point lead with FC Antwerpen a further 3 points adrift and former greats Anderlect in 6th place. The other club from the beautiful city of Bruges, namely Cercle won their 3rd successive match to at last climb above the bottom 2.

Finally in Portugal no surprises as the joint leaders FC Porto and Sporting Lisbon both won, the latter winning the Lisbon derby 3-1 away to Benfica 10 days ago. I must congratulate the Algarvean club of Portimonense who just avoid relegation last season by one point and have reached the mighty heights of 6th position, even winning 1-0 at Benfica in early October and are now just a point away from qualifying for next season’s Europa League. A long way to go of course, but it’s 25 years since the last Algarvean side Sporting Clubbe Farnese reached that competition.

This post was modified 8 months ago by Ken Smith

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Original Fat Bob
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@ken

Good post and good topic Ken

OFB


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Ken Smith
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The first opponents that I saw Boro play were Everton in 1947 and the toffees have remained one of my favourite clubs. With 9 top league Championship wins the last as long ago as 1987, and 5 FA Cup wins, the last in 1995, and having spent £14.4M pre-season one would have thought that they would have made a better show this season under Rafa Benitez. It just goes to show that money must be wisely spent, so that is a warning to Newcastle that millions of pounds spending in January will probably not save the Magpies from relegation this season. I know that will please most Boro fans but not me as after their summer spending they will be strong favourites to regain their Premier League status after next season, so will be considerable competition for Boro if we fail to gain promotion this season.

This post was modified 8 months ago 2 times by Ken Smith

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Ken Smith
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Posted by: @ken

The first opponents that I saw Boro play were Everton in 1947 and the toffees have remained one of my favourite clubs. With 9 top league Championship wins the last as long ago as 1987, and 5 FA Cup wins, the last in 1995, and having spent £14.4M pre-season on new players (that’s over £300M spent under Director of Football Marcel Brands in the last 3 and a half years, one would have thought that they would have made a better show this season under Rafa Benitez. It just goes to show that money must be wisely spent, so that is a warning to Newcastle that millions of pounds spending in January will probably not save the Magpies from relegation this season. I know that will please most Boro fans but not me as after their summer spending they will be strong favourites to regain their Premier League status after next season, so will be considerable competition for Boro if we fail to gain promotion this season. 

However I expect that the big 3 North-East clubs will all be in the Championship next season, and that Southampton or Watford are more vulnerable than Burnley  in the relegation battle as manager Sean Dyche waves his magic wand again to save the Clarets from relegation in the second half of the season.

 


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Ken Smith
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What a shambles in the so called Champions League knockout stage as clubs from the same group were drawn against each other (Man Utd against Villarreal which is not allowed), so a redraw had to be made. A similar situation occurred in the Rugby League Challenge Cup last season with the withdrawal of Toronto Wolfpack from Super League meaning a redraw had to be made. Red faces all around I guess in what should have been a simple operation. I seem to recall that one year the FA Cup had to be redrawn because ball number 6 was confused with ball number 9 several years ago, although I haven’t been able to confirm that, but maybe some Diasborians might recall that unless I’m mistaken.


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Original Fat Bob
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jarkko
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@original-fat-bob I do not think that is possible as long as we have Steve Gibson. Of course the covid time has hit Boro hard but then we have off-loaded some expensive players from the Monk era.

Middlesbrough and Gibson, never braking the rules. Never.

And we could alway sell the Riverside if needed. Up the Boro!


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exmil
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Posted by: @original-fat-bob

OFB

Is this based on our transfer dealings so far this window as I expect some outgoings later in the window as clubs will try to wait out for the cheapest price they can get our players for but as we get closer to 1 Feb, buying clubs will get desperate as we have seen in the past, fortunately Boro seem to have done their business early.

Come on BORO.


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exmil
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exmil
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exmil
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Another month extension, are the EFL dragging it out until the end of the season?

https://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/sport/football/middlesbrough-fc/championship-news-derby-administrators-granted-one-month-extension-to-provide-proof-of-funding-3543984

Come on BORO.

 

 

 

 


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