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Boro v Ipswich
 

Boro v Ipswich

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Saturday 9 December 2023 - 15:00

Ipswich gains its name from the Gipping River, originally called “Gippa”. “Wic” is an old English word for port or corner so the town was called Gippaswic and is now Ipswich. Gippa is likely derived from the word to wander as in the Wandering River. Admittedly it doesn’t wander all the way to Teesside but, as the crow flies, it’s almost exactly 200 miles between Middlesbrough and Ipswich.

Ipswich always seems to me to be one of those unfashionable clubs much like ourselves who no one pays attention to then, once in a generation, they seem to burst out of nowhere. Yet when you look at their record, they were frankly astonishing for a long period. They won the first division in 1961–62, their first season in the top flight, and finished runners-up in 1980–81 and 1981–82. They finished in the top six in the First Division for ten years, with the exception of when they won the FA Cup in 1977–78. Ipswich were a regular competitor in European football and won the UEFA Cup in 1980–81. The club has competed in all three major European club competitions and holds the record as being the only British side to have never lost at home in European competition, having defeated teams such as Real Madrid, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Lazio and Barcelona. (from Wikipedia)

Like us, though, their recent record makes for sobering reading. Relegated from the Premier league in 2002, they were stuck in the Championship until 2019 when they were relegated to League One. Now maybe they are back on their way up.

There is a fascinating parallel between us and them. Their manager, Kieran McKenna, was a coach with Manchester Utd alongside Michael Carrick until appointed by Ipswich in December 2021. His first season was indifferent but since then he has them storming up the table.

Like Carrick, he prefers to play in a flexible 4-2-3-1 but he has had an extra year to get them firing. Like Carrick he has also had to cope with massive churn. In 22-23, his first full season in charge he brought in 15 players. This season he has largely consolidated his squad and the team appears to be reaping the rewards.

Although many seem surprised by Ipswich’s success, posters here frequently flagged them as the season’s over-achievers in the COTS challenge.

As for the game on Saturday, how will Carrick’s injury ravaged squad cope with a second game in a row against a top 2 contender? On paper it looks like a nailed-on loss for us. The highest scoring team in the league against a defence that is made out of papier-mache and confusion. But, there is hope.

Ipswich’s away record is very different from their home record. They have scored just 11 goals in 9 games. They’re still second in the league’s away table but they focus on being compact and defensive. Even so, they have only failed to score once all season: a recent 2-0 defeat by WBA. Ok, maybe there isn’t a lot of hope but if you look closely I reckon they may have peaked this season. As with Carrick last season, the rest of the league has had time to look at them and come up with plans to use against them.

RECORD CHAMPIONSHIP 23/24

  Matches Wins Draws Losses ø pts Goals ø spectators
Home record 10 9 - 1 2.70 30:17 28.654
Away record 9 5 3 1 2.00 11:8 23.658
Overall balance 19 14 3 2 2.37 41:25 26.287

On Saturday they will be missing “star-man” Massimo Luongo due to suspension as well as former Man Utd “wonderkid” Brandon Williams so I am going to plump for an unexpected 2-1 victory for us.

So let’s have your predictions for the score and who do you think will be dragged out of the casualty department to play for us?


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Deleriad,

A great opening piece of the now usual very high standard. I loved the part about a 'defence made of papier mache and confusion', that made me laugh out loud over my breakfast tea. Now to brood on what the unpredictables will concede, score and make the final result.

All the best everyone.

UTB,

John

PS my spell check kept turning mache into macho, maybe both are true...

This post was modified 5 months ago 2 times by John Richardson

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Thanks for another great opener Deleriad - I thought Middlesborough were the typo kings but I feel Gippaswic may have outdone us by losing their opening G - very careless 😉 

Anyway, as for the game this weekend it will take some performance from Michael Carrick to put out a team from what he's got left that will win the game - it's possible but I suspect he'll need a very good week on the training pitch and some luck on the injury front. 

Hopefully, Hackney is fit again and maybe Fry with the return of Greenwood also useful - but it will need a team performance with everyone fully focused for 100 minutes.


Martin Bellamy
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Another great opener - thanks @deleriad
I’m unusually optimistic about this game - maybe it’s the imminent arrival of a new granddaughter (on her way as I’m typing this post) - I’ll echo a forecast of 2-1 to the Boro. 


   
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@martin-bellamy congratulations on the imminent arrival.

Interesting little piece in the Gazette: Ipswich pundit notes our "lack of steel" but what really caught my eye is this:

"Conor Chaplin is essentially playing as number ten, but they play with two number tens really because [Nathan] Broadhead is listed as playing wide left but he plays in the pocket as well. Chaplin goes everywhere and he is basically their most important player. You then have Leif Davis down the left who is tied for the most assists in the division

That is exactly the same system we played last year. We had McGree or Ramsey as a wide player playing as a second #10 with freedom to roam, Giles down the outside while Chuba played as a #10 but mostly stayed on the right and was definitely our most important player.

Start of the season, Carrick tried something different because we didn't have the players for it but has gone back to that system albeit with players who aren't at the same standard.

He continues to say that Ipswich "give you a bit of a chance out wide because their full-backs are not amazing defenders", which sounds familiar and then 

the partnership of [Massimo] Luongo and [Sam] Morsy in the middle who are brilliant together

Ironically, this pair of Boro rejects are providing the steel that we lack. Between them they have 3 goals and 3 assists which isn't bad for a pair of defensive midfielders but their focus is breaking up the opponent's play while they have just enough nous to play through a press if they have to.

You look through both teams and I reckon that if you compare them player by player we probably have 8-9 who are as good as or better than their equivalent. At this point though, Ipswich are better set up and the team is better constructed. (Plus they don't have 10 players missing.) They have also had a whole season to play together. 


Martin Bellamy
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@deleriad I think we made a mistake in letting Morsy leave - I suspect there’s more to his leaving than we know.


Philip of Huddersfield
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There’s hardly a few days go by without some article saying Boro are likely to sign Sam Greewood and reminding us of Boro’s buy agreement.

Is he worth £1.5 million ?  Probably yes.

But are they in pole position to sign him?   Certainly not.   He’s only got to have a decent season and a lower Premiership team or one of the promoted teams come in for him who are able to offer a better salary and he’ll probably be off. Plus , why would he sign a permanent deal with Boro most likely on a lower salary he’s getting now ?

Is he likely to sign for Boro in January when Boro are mid table and other teams will probably not make a move until the end of the season?  No way.

I think there’s a message here- why get loan players from Premiership teams when they  on a higher salary than Boro can afford on a permanent deal ?
There is the real risk that players will follow the money  - just like Giles and Archer.

The alternative is to source promising talent from lower divisions - its working with one or two at the moment.

just a thought as I read another Greenwood article.

Philip of Huddersfield 


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@deleriad - Thank you for your Opener which, again, and since we now have a variety of contributors, is proving to be something of a delight in view of the different styles and viewpoints offered.

It is too early to offer a prediction.  Does anyone have any idea whether Boro has enough fit players to make up a team and fill the Bench?  Or maybe the offers by Jarkko and myself on the previous thread could be put into action?  The club can contact us via this Blog if needed.

Deleriad mentioned Ipswich winning the 1st Division title in 1961-62.  That was, of course, the top tier of English football, the Permier League of its day.  If I remember correctly the manager of Ipswich then was a certain Alfred Ramsey and he had taken Ipswich from the 4th to the 3rd, to the 2nd and then to the 1st Divisions before winning that League. He must have been a decent manager.  I wonder what became of him?

  EDIT - I have just checked and it was Division 3 (South) that Ipswich won under Ramsey (then Div 2 and Div 1).  Presumably Divisions Three (South) and  Three (North), didn't merge and become Divisions Three and Four until later.  Still, the lads did well, as they used to say.

This post was modified 5 months ago by Forever Dormo

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Posted by: @philip-of-huddersfield

But are they in pole position to sign him?   Certainly not.   He’s only got to have a decent season and a lower Premiership team or one of the promoted teams come in for him who are able to offer a better salary and he’ll probably be off. Plus , why would he sign a permanent deal with Boro most likely on a lower salary he’s getting now ?

That does seem to be the situation. It looks like we have a provisional agreement with the player (or agent) to match his Leeds salary but if Leeds get promoted and we don't, it seems likely that we won't be able to afford the increase.

I *hope* that there is some sort of agreement that means he is bound to accept a transfer to us providing its on the same or better terms and conditions that he is on at Leeds when the summer transfer window opens but I can't see why any player (or agent) would agree to that.

I guess we could try and sign him in January but, again, I don't see why Greenwood would agree to that.

The only way I see him staying with us is if we get promoted.


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I posted this on the Leeds thread but it really belongs here:

I personally think the starting eleven on Saturday will be:

Dieng

Engel VDB Clarke Bangura

Howson Barlaser

Rogers Crooks Greenwood 

Lath 

Providing no one returns or is injured in training/ill.

Come on BORO.


   
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Kieran Scott says that Middlesbrough's purchase clause in Sam Greenwood's loan deal doesn't mean they can just click a button and sign the Leeds United man.

Greenwood, 21, has proven an excellent signing for Boro so far this season. Stepping up for them at the opportune time as Riley McGree got injured, the loan man currently leads Boro's goalscoring charts in the league with four to date.

That includes his stunning free-kick against Leicester City which claimed Boro three points before the international break and was symptomatic of his impact so far as a player with the quality to change a game in an instant. With a £1.5 million deal agreed with Leeds in the loan deal which would allow Boro to sign the forward, his recent performances make such a move from Boro a no-brainer.

READ MORE: Kieran Scott discusses Middlesbrough's January transfer plans and offers hint at direction

But head of football Kieran Scott was keen to explain why Boro can't just do that right away. In a studio interview with BBC Tees, Scott said: "It’s not as simple as that. I won't bore people, but it's a difficult one. At the minute he is still a Leeds player and I have to be respectful.

"He's on loan with an option, I’ll leave it at that. The only slight issue that could come is if Leeds were promoted, being totally transparent so everyone has the full picture. If Leeds were to be promoted, we all know what comes with that, when teams get promoted players do better for themselves. I'm sure Sam is one of those and that is an issue that is there.

 
 

"We'd work with Sam and his representatives in that position if that was what the club wanted to do, but it's a difficult scenario. There are things to work through but Sam has shown he can be a key component for us. The club-to-club side is dealt with, it would be about agreeing other things. Believe me, we will do our best.

"I watched him when he was 15 at Sunderland. I really liked him, couldn't afford him. He went to Arsenal and then I had another swipe when he came out of Arsenal and chose to go to Leeds, which is fine. This is third time lucky. He's been good for us and we've been good for him. Long may it continue."


   
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Thanks Deleriad for an enjoyable and informative read.

I think we will do well to get a draw from this one given our ravaged side and a defence which has more holes in it than a colander.  We haven’t had a home draw since August so the odds are probably in favour of one. Given Ipswich are not prolific scorers away from home I will go for 1-1.

I am hoping that Fry and Hackney may be back, which will mean that RVB can be deployed at right back.

On the subject of Greenwood, I agree with you, we will not secure his services unless we are promoted; we are effectively a shop window again for another club to maximise its assets. 😎


   
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Just as an aside on the promotion race this season - there may well end up being quite a lot of pressure on teams hoping to gain promotion this season if the football authorities follow through with the Everton points deduction with their rumoured threat of making an example of both Man City and Chelsea for potentially being in breach off fair play rules by exaggerating their commercial sponsorship rules.

The sanction hanging over both clubs is the threat of being relegated from the Premier League - some would say about time but it would become a collective punishment for all Championship clubs who had any aspirations of promotion next season. Whatever way you look at it, both clubs would be odds-on favourites to gain the automatic promotion places given their players and available resources.

So not sure how you balance the punishment of the offenders with being fair to those you impose the fallout of the punishment on. Maybe you should relegate them and give them a 30 point penalty to help even things up - or even relegate them two divisions - though the consequences are the same.

Though ultimately I'm sure the Premier League will not want to damage their brand by losing two of its most high-profile and globally supported clubs. Financial penalties are meaningless for these clubs and even points deductions would need to be massive to threaten their Premier League status. Plus the lawyers may well find it hard to prove the offences beyond all reasonable doubt unless they have hard evidence. 

It's probably something Sheff Utd, Luton and Burnley are watching with great interest as another season in the PL is worth around £150m to them - though given the choice most Championship clubs would prefer to see the three of them back rather than Man City, Chelsea or Everton!


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@exmil 

Would seem to be the most likely team if nobody returns from injury given the lack of players left in defence and midfield - though there are a few more attacking option with Silvera a possible Jones replacement. The other option would be to deploy Latte Lath in a wide attacking role given his pace and play Josh as the main striker.


   
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@philip-of-huddersfield 

I suppose the chances of signing Greenwood on the cheap are dependent on him not having an outstanding season - as is keeping hold of Hackney and McGree - who could even be subject to offers in January from PL clubs looking to strengthen their teams. At least Boro would at least get some cash for those two but it would severely dent our play-off hopes if they left in a month. I don't see much chance of them playing for Boro next season in the Championship though as they both look capable of playing at a higher level.


   
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From C J

Steve Gibson has reiterated his incredible financial support to Middlesbrough by converting almost £107 million worth of debt into shares.

The debt of equity swap agreement was published on the club's Companies House page last week, leaving many questioning what was behind the decision. While Gibson has always pledged to finance the club and not ask for the debt, the sudden change left many questioning whether it could be preparation for a club sale.

But sources have told Teesside Live that Gibson has no such plans to sell the football club and remains as committed as ever to the project of getting Boro back to the Premier League. Instead, the debt write-off - a common and completely sound business practice - was just a means of cleaning up the balance sheet in the accounts.

Read more:Josh Coburn has eight matches to alter Middlesbrough's January transfer strategy

Another factor that might have been mistakingly considered is Championship Financial Fair Play rules ahead of the January transfer window. However, actually titled Profitability and Sustainability rules, they focus on profit and loss, with this move ultimately having no bearing on that front. Instead, it would appear to be just another show of Gibson's altruistic support of the club.

Chief football finance guru Kieran Maguire told Teesside Live: "This ultimately makes the balance sheet look better. It would help if you were looking for new investment but equally it's simply just a housekeeping exercise. At Middlesbrough, Steve Gibson is never going to ask for the money back as (a) he's a fan and (b) the club doesn't have the cash, so might as well convert into shares."

 
 

In recent years of huge losses for the club, loans from Gibson's other company: Gibson O’Neill Company Limited have ultimately kept the club afloat. Financial statements of the last few years have all stated: “The going concern basis of the company depends on the support from the Gibson O’Neill Company Limited, the ultimate parent undertaking, who will continue to provide that support, if required, to the company for the foreseeable future."

The debt write-off will be presented fully in the next set of financial accounts which are due by March 31 in the New Year. With a new model in full swing, the ultimate goal of the company is to make itself more sustainable with the help of increased revenue from player sales, while remaining competitive in Boro's ultimate ambition to make it back to the Premier League.

For more football finance insight, you can listen to Kieran Maguire's twice-weekly podcast The Price of Football. Kieran and co-host Kevin Day have also just released a new book Unfit and Improper Persons: An Idiot’s Guide to Owning a Football Club, which is available from all book retailers.

 


   
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Very enjoyable piece, deleriad, with an astute follow up on the similarities between Ipswich's and our own set-up last season.

We do know something, Martin, about the context of Morsy's departure, thanks to an interview that Sam did during the close season. 

He revealed that he did not wish to leave the Boro and was very happy here. The move came out of the blue and was a surprise to both himself and Warnock. However the club needed to move him on in order to create  headroom for the signing of James Siliki.

This was done over Warnock's head and without his agreement, and was a major sources of friction between himself and Scott.

Warnock knew nothing about Siliki, who was signed largely on the basis of his stats.

As we all know, that worked out well. 

Morsy's return, to say nothing of Luongo's, is a standing rebuke to Scott's philosophy of favouring overseas players untested at Championship level and undervaluing players who could do a job for us at that level.

The departure of Watmore was another example. Both he and Morsy were sold when they were doing a decent job for us.and both  would walk into our first team squad at the present time.

Indeed a striker and defensive midfield shield should be important recruitment priorities in the January window, as they have been for some seasons now.

I think that we can rest assured that if there are signings in those areas they will certainly not be of either Morsy's or Watmore's proven quality.

So Morsy returns as a vital component of a side who may well be in the Premier League next season, an outcome not unforeseen by many on this blog as deleriad has observed.

The rebuke to Scott will be implicit. I doubt whether it will be articulated in the Gazette, which has learned to its cost the price of voicing any criticism of the club.

That is necessary and entirely honourable function of this blog

Incidentally, the ridiculous dismissal of Tony Mowbray is just the latest example of the tendency outlined here of managers who have a proven record of success being by-passed, overruled and ultimately sacked by far less knowledgable and experienced administrators in thrall to statistics.

 

 

 


Martin Bellamy
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Just as an aside - my 5th granddaughter, Poppy,  has just arrived. 


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@martin-bellamy 

many congratulations to you and all the family so that makes you grand poppy !

OFB


   
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Deleriad

Many thanks for a great opening piece the standard get’s higher and higher !

OFB


   
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@lenmasterman - I suspect most of us on this Blog (and maybe the football supporting public generally) think the way football is run in this country is ridiculous.  It may be just as ridiculous in many other countries, too, but our attention has its focus on the game here in England.

James Siliki - I'd forgotten about him!  It may have been fairly recently but if players come and go like the No 72 bus used to, it can hardly be a surprise if some of those players hardly dent the consciousness.  I also agree that football at Boro's level seems to devalue the contributions that can be made by home-grown talent when average players from abroad (who you KNOW will have disappeared very shortly) are brought in, in preference. Watmore would have given 100%, and his loyalty, whenever selected and the same can be said about Morsy, and will be said in due course about Coburn.  Such players, if moving to a new club, rarely need a "settling-in period" and tend not to have family members of partners who find it difficult to settle in the area (always a good excuse when the player may want to move away).  If we could go back to the seam from which George Friend was mined, that would be fine - £100,000 was it, for about 6 years' service, most of it at a really high level?

And @werdermouth - Scotland managed to relegate Glasgow Rangers not only a divison but right to the bottom division in the Scottish League pyramid (as opposed to non-league). Rangers, as one of the 2 giants of Scottish football with Celtic, are more important to the Scottish League than Manchester City or Chelsea are to the EPL.  Take Celtic and Rangers out of the Scottish Premiership and you'd have a much diminished (though almost certainly more competitive) league there. If ManC or Chelsea were to be relegated, the league would still have giant clubs with world-wide appeal like Liverpool, ManU, Arsenal, Spurs, Newcastle and Villa, maybe Everton, Wolves etc to contest the competition (and next year presumably Leicester City, recent winners of the EPL and the FA Cup, will almost certainly return to the EPL - in how many other leagues is it possible for a team which reached the heights so recently, to have been relegated then promoted again?).  Scotland's league lost one of its two pillars when Rangers was relegated but England's league is much stronger.  And the advantage for the other teams in lower divisions is that every one of them would get a sell-out crowd for the home game against Manchester City (or whoever) as they start their hopeful journey back to the Promissed Land.

Send 'em down....


Martin Bellamy
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@forever-dormo I agree with all you’ve written. At some point, the powers that be need to make an example of the rule breaking “big clubs”. It’s all very well buying your way to success (it was ever thus) but the regulations are there for a reason, not least pour encourager les autres. 


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@forever-dormo 

It would be nice if 'the rules' were applied without fear or favour but call me a late-middle-aged (definitely not old) cynic but I suspect the Premier League will lobby to protect their brand where the combined global fan-base of Man City and Chelsea is estimated to exceed 100 million supporters. 

While there are plenty of other big clubs ready to fill the gap, the PL marketing machine will have trouble explaining to 100 million purchasers of 'merch' and indeed those much sought after TV subscriptions that teams 'blue' and 'light-blue' are now mixing it with Crawley, Crewe and Carlisle with highlights now available without commentary courtesy of a wobbly camera at the back of rocky temporary stand.

OK, if Rangers had to do the long walk back then why not state-owned Citeh and the new LA Dodgers (no not dodgy) led consortium run Chelsea? The comparison's with Rangers start to fade once you consider the winners of the Scottish PL stand to pocket £3.2 million this season with a bumper £24.5m being shared by the whole league - which is barely a 3rd year parachute payment for their English cousins! 

While I'm sure the almost 9 million global fans of Rangers were no doubt aggrieved at their drop to bottom tier, I wonder if they had enough powerful voices to advocate on their team's behalf. I'm also less convinced that the legal arguments against Man City and Chelsea will be proved without doubt in what is a very grey area of sponsorship of billion-dollar global brands.

It's worth noting that Rangers were relegated to the third tier for basically going bust and entering administration - can't see that happening to Man city or Chelsea. Anyway, hope I don't become more cynical when I do get old...


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@martin-bellamy 

Congratulations Martin and you're so lucky to already have five grandchildren - unfortunately if my 13-year old follows my example I'll be approaching 93 before I see my first grandchild so I won't be expecting to be in charge of sleepovers unless they're my naps following lunch after writing my latest blog post asking if anyone remembers who the little fella was...


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So it’s evening and I’ve a nice glass of malt after having a nice dinner and a good read of our blog. It’s nice to say that isn’t it? Our blog, it’s something that was conceived by AV and the reigns taken up by Werdermouth and supported by many like minded people who are still,with us today.

i miss Ken and also the others who have left over the years. I’ve tried to get them to return because I thought they had something to say.

To those who have just joined, what I would say is you will have seen that we don’t criticise people who submit posts. We don’t utter profanities ! We are often pretty optimistic ((Boro3?) But, but, but we all support  the  Boro and each other.

Turning to the game on Saturday I’m going for 1-1 !

 

 

OFB

 

 


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@martin-bellamy Nice one Martin, congratulations to all involved.

ATB

John


Martin Bellamy
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@werdermouth Funnily enough, none of them is my biological grandkid. One of my daughters adopted a baby she and her husband had fostered, my other daughter is step mum to her partner’s two girls and Poppy is my step daughter’s second girl. To me, they’re my grandkids and I couldn’t be prouder of everyone involved.


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@original-fat-bob 

And  it's a pleasure to have such a refuge away from the bonkers world, where we can all share a totally irrational, and mainly hopeless, love for the Boro and not have to explain or justify it to anyone 


jarkko
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Posted by: @martin-bellamy

Just as an aside - my 5th granddaughter, Poppy,  has just arrived. 

Concratulations. So nice to hear some positive news in the modern world. This makes the life worth living. Without forgetting Boro!

Have you taken any of the grandchildren to the Riverside yet? Up the Boro!

 


   
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Powmill-Naemore
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Posted by: @martin-bellamy

Just as an aside - my 5th granddaughter, Poppy,  has just arrived. 

Wonderful news. Congratulations to everyone in the Bellamy family.

Now. You must not neglect your grandfatherly duties to ensure young Poppy is properly raised to be a Boro supporter!!

 


   
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