Without getting too party political, I'd ponder that just about sums up how bad brand Corbyn was perceived by a large section of the electorate if after the omnishambles of how the UK government has handled the covid crisis (and seemingly continues to do so) plus their own downgrading of that oven-ready brexit deal to half-baked - people would still probably in hindsight opt for Johnson over Corbyn as PM.
Especially if you consider the dither over going into lockdown back in March has probably (according to several scientists who advised the government) been responsible for more than half of those lives lost and that the UK economic hit was worse than any other major economy, plus most children have had no education for six months.
It doesn't really matter if Corbyn could have done better if the perception is a Labour government would have likely performed worse - indeed, under Kier Starmer Labour are still trailing the Conservatives so you wonder if the electorate have just accepted the Covid crisis is not something any party has demonstrated it has an answer to.
Though, it's a bit like Trump where no matter what he says or does it doesn't seem to significantly effect most people's voting intentions - this is perhaps similar to what has happened with politics in the UK and people have just decided which team they're backing regardless of what happens. I suspect this is still the fallout from Brexit and it still defines the political landscape even in a Covid world to the point where all other issues are still secondary in deciding where their support is. Though if a vaccine fails to arrive next year that will surely change as lockdown fever will demand someone to blame.
Though while I appreciate leaving the EU became of great importance to many, I'm still struggling to see any tangible benefits to peoples lives (possibly in the lifetimes of many who voted for it) that will ultimately arise from Brexit - indeed, it's likely to rumble on and on and seed further populist divisions. The dread of Scottish independence will make Brexit seem like children's party and we can only hope the Irish troubles are not reawakened by a failure to blink either.
Hopefully, the UK will move on and won't fully embrace populist arguments as it's always divisive and fuels the blame culture that allows jelly-like politicians to avoid being pinned down on their actual record or decisions they have been responsible for in their quest for power.
- @redcarred In reality, it could be worse. The “Leader” could have been Mr Corbyn. Now that is something to ponder on.
Are you sure?
Of course I am a foreigner but the current prime minister of the UK does not even look like a minister. And I am not just talking about his outlook but his behaviour. Not very trustworthy.
But I think the problem is because of your system to have "just two" parties. So you go from one extreme to another.
We have five parties in the government currently and the five parties all have a lady as a leader. Even the opposition have no complains how the COVID is handled over here. The situation is in order but not over.
We have had spectators in the football matches (at 1/6th of full capacity) since July. I was at a match with my wife on Sunday as we were on holiday away from home. And we had never visited the club before.
But this is going to be a too political again. Where is Ian Gill?
Up the Boro!
I read your thread on classical composers this morning Ken, nice interesting summaries and being quite fond of a bit of baroque music, I particularly interested to hear that Bach had 20 children! I also remember some facts about other composers from my schooldays, who we learnt about - I can recall writing an essay on Haydn and his little trick in the Surprise symphony.
btw you've currently got this thread set as private so it's not visible in the recent threads list - is it because you want to complete your list of composers before people add comments?
Boris Johnson, like Trump in America is the default vote because there isn’t an electable alternative.
@werdermouth
Not particularly, it’s just a subject like any blog to keep me awake instead of falling asleep in front of the television. However my view of classical composers eventually takes in Irving Berlin, Richard Rodgers, Cole Porter and Scott Joplin not exclusively music for ‘stuffed shirts’ but quite an eclectic set of musicians whose compositions have stood the test of time.
Boris Johnson, like Trump in America is the default vote because there isn’t an electable alternative.
I might have used the past tense as I think there looks like a credible alternative in Westminster now., at last. Although, north of the border there has been an extremely credible alternative for many years. It doesn't matter if you agree with her or not; that you like her or not; that you like her politics or not; but Nicola Sturgeon perhaps has been the most credible of all of the leading politicians in the UK over many years and looking at her dispassionately I have to say it is a shame she couldn't be Prime Minister of the UK. Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but a truly effective leader.
Just back in and editing what I wrote...
Add Ruth Davidson to my list of one credible leader in British politics.... funnily enough another Scot and another woman, and again regardless of her politics another effective leader putting to shame the Westminster crew.
@werdermouth
Not particularly, it’s just a subject like any blog to keep me awake instead of falling asleep in front of the television. However my view of classical composers eventually takes in Irving Berlin, Richard Rodgers, Cole Porter and Scott Joplin not exclusively music for ‘stuffed shirts’ but quite an eclectic set of musicians whose compositions have stood the test of time.
I'd second that Ken.
RR and GHW
I have to own up to helping to vote in our first Conservative MP for Redcar and Cleveland.
I’m no fan of Boris but Corbyn was never a serious contender for PM. Despite the shambles that has unfolded, I’m still not sure that, even a Keir Starmer led party, would have fared any better.
On a local level, I feel that Labour, who I backed for many years, have done nothing to improve employment prospects and infrastructure in this area. Sadly, the Teesside Development Corporation of the 80s and the recent South Tees Development Corporation are Conservative initiatives. Successive Labour MP’s have been happy to bemoan the woes of our area without coming up with any radical proposals to improve things, which is probably why Steve Gibson switched his political allegiance.
Rant over.
Boris Johnson, like Trump in America is the default vote because there isn’t an electable alternative.
I hope you weren't inadvertently implying that Trump should by any measure be regarded as an electable option 😉 Though you shouldn't forget he actually received fewer votes than Hilary Clinton in 2016.
Indeed, Corbyn received 1.6m more votes than Gordon Brown got in 2010 when he lost to the Cameron-Clegg coalition and 700,000 more than Tony Blair got when he won a 67 majority in 2005.
Being perceived as electable is merely subjective to what voters want at a given time and the main problem with democracy is whether the truth behind what shapes the narrative on which people make their judgement is ultimately correct.
Anyway, the notion that the people get what they vote for is highly dependent on the electoral system used - Blair for instance got that 67 majority with just 35% of the vote, Johnson got his 78 majority with 43.6% of the vote (The unelectable duo of Corbyn and Jo Swinson got almost the identical combined number of votes as Johnson). You could say in the UK that the majority never get what they voted for - which ironically is the same argument against having a proportional election system.
The added dimension in the social media age is that political messaging is now delivered in many different bespoke packages that appeal to smaller targeted sections but taken as a whole they may not necessarily be compatible with each other. Many leaders have now therefore tried to avoid being specific on mass media or just try to avoid it altogether - it's the new trick of mass appeal by fooling most of the people most of the time.
that sounds a good list to look forward to - particularly Scott Joplin!
Well, I did not want to start a political thread, after all they are suspended.
I posted it out of frustration I guess. I do believe however that Mr Corbyn and the likes of Ms Abbott would have performed worse.
My issue is that you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t. All these so called experts, most with a string of letters after their names, which they proudly show, cannot agree. We have 180 degree views from people advising.
I am not keen on Boris, nor Mr Hancock for that matter. They have and continue to make mistakes, and every country almost is doing the same.
I've not seen much of Nicola Sturgeon or Ruth Davison to judge them but I remember reading women leaders have proved to be the most successful during the Covid crisis. Although, by definition Nicola Sturgeon would never want to be British Prime Minister and her long (medium?) game is still Scottish independence, which may well become closer to reality if Johnson continues to mess up both the pandemic response and the Brexit negotiations on behalf of the four nations.
He's probably almost doing the campaigning for her at the moment but ultimately it sounds like further chaos if the Scottish people opt for a total break - Devo-Max sounds like a better option in a federal UK, much in the same way Germany is a federal state. Essentially, independence without the hassle of the divorce.
“I hope you weren't inadvertently implying that Trump should by any measure be regarded as an electable option 😉 Though you shouldn't forget he actually received fewer votes than Hilary Clinton in 2016.”
Trump is the incumbent and an alternative has to be found, Biden certainly isn’t one and Trump will be re-elected. Much the same as Johnson was the leader of the ruling party and Corbyn et al were simply not a credible alternative. Rather than lifetime labour voters switching allegiance, I’d like to see the figures for those who cast a vote in the last election who don’t normally vote.
Starmer is currently cleansing the party of the insidious Momentum and weeding out the last of the Blairites. A slow laborious process, but he has four years to do it ( if he can survive the usual in fighting). In the meantime we’ll stumble through the remnants of Brexit on a wing and a prayer. The political equivalent of “ she’ll be right Cobber”
The very mention of the word Politician fills me with cynicism, dread and distrust. There is a massive gaping hole today in British Politics and even more frightening in world politics for just a modicum of competence, integrity and common sense. It seems that Females like Merkel and Ardern are better equipped for the task than their current Male counterparts.
I can't stand Nicola Sturgeon but I do have to admire that she sticks to her guns and has shown conviction and more believability than others of late. I agree about Ruth Davidson as well, I always thought that she could be a great leader of the Conservative party but it will never happen for a multitude of reasons.
Mark Twain's famous attributed quote "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time” was honestly summed up by George W. Bush with “You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on.” If that doesn't work the way of modern Politics seems to be if you don't get what you want just refuse to accept the result or break International Laws.
Sticking with Twain I like his "Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of congress;
but I repeat myself."
When George W Bush clinched the Republican presidential nomination he declared of his opponents "They misunderestimated me" - how true he was!
I hope your presidential prediction is wrong - I'm hoping enough people who gave him the benefit of the doubt 4 years ago will be in no doubt of the benefit of not giving him another 4 years. Though Biden's main attribute appears to be that he's not Trump.
At the independence referendum I was absolutely in the no camp.
But, I have to say Werder, you are absolutely right. The SNP don't have to waste any energy marketing their avowed objective. Westminster has been their most successful marketing team for free for the last 8 years and continues to be so.
I am now in the very easily persuaded camp that not even Devo Max will satisfy.
And to make sure we don't stray too far from football, at least if we were independent I could watch Boro legitimately on any of the non-uk carriers!
It does bug me that we have separate FAs in England, Scotland, Wales and NI, yet the TV rights for English football apply across the UK.
If the SNP want independence they should lobby for a vote in England. It would be a “ Caker” as they say north of the border.
Feels like only yesterday I was watching Rory Delap flinging 200 yard throw-ins for Stoke.
Now his son is scoring goals for Man City.
Christ. I'm old.
I might never even make it as a professional footballer at this rate....
BTW, do you think Boro will have a match tomorrow?
In London, perhaps. Up the Boro!
I can’t seem to find your Classical music thread Ken. You might like this.....
@steely it's difficult to improve the area as an MP though when you have been out of power for 10 years. The STDC may have been a Tory initiative but whether an elected mayor is a useful post or another level of bureaucracy is still open to question. And the actual set up of the STDC was undertaken by the Labour leaders at the time. Our mayor has a habit of coming along afterwards and taking credit for it (see also James Wharton).
Ultimately the money available to the STDC is money that should have been available to our area anyway and has been taken away by 10 years of austerity. It seems to me that central government cuts the funding (disproportionately to traditional Labour areas) and then the local Labour councils get the blame.
As someone once said the greatest trick the Tories have been able to pull is to convince working people that they are on their side. Brexit and the unicorns attached to it are just another extension of it.
As for whether a Labour government would have dealt with Covid better - I don't think there is much doubt they would have done. Labour were calling for an earlier lockdown in March which would have saved lives and better protected the economy. Johnson's ideological resistance to curtailing freedoms and using the powers of the state to impose on people's lives has done the opposite.
I’ve posted the classical music thread under Forum > Off topic but it was not my intention for it to be private. I must have pressed the wrong button somewhere along the way so maybe only Werdermouth has been able to read it. I don’t know how to rectify that unless Werdermouth can help. The thread though is something to do to keep me awake through this lockdown as I tend to fall asleep watching television. My idea was to write about 60 or so classical composers in chronological order of their birth and so far I’ve written short stories about Vivaldi, Handel, Bach, Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven but will hopefully eventually include the likes of Scott Joplin, Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, Ivor Novello and Richard Rodgers as I consider any composer who wrote music that is still popular today should be considered classical.
I've clicked on the 'public' option so it should now be visible to everyone in the General Discussion forum. Here's the actual link to the thread...
https://diasboro.club/forum/general-discussion/classical-music/
I would accept your argument were it not for the fact that I saw nothing during the 13 years that Labour were in power.
The calls for an early lockdown were made after the event.
@steely well, I suppose it depends on your perspective. national minimum wage, sure start, reduction in child poverty, reduction in unemployment, investment in public services and so on. all benefited the area. they certainly could have done more but I'm not sure how you see that compared to ten years of austerity, which disproportionately affected Teesside and decide the Tories are the better option.
15 March
"
Speaking in north London on Sunday, Mr Corbyn said: "We are suffering a pandemic. It is very, very serious and the government just seems to be complacent and behind on this.
"They are giving advice which is different to that given in almost every other European country. This is something strange."
He added: "It seems to me that at every stage, the government just isn't on it and isn't fast enough."
Don’t want to turn this into a saga. I stated that I was a long-standing Labour supporter and my criticism referred to their performance locally.
The issues you highlight are commendable but, in the end, the benefits of the buoyant economy were blown. Hence the Chancellor’s parting shot of “there’s no money left”.
I appreciate your views on all things Boro. Politically, we may have to agree to disagree.
(but there was no money left as it was a global financial crisis and the Tories were backing Labour's spending plans right up to it) 😉