@ken Thanks for those words. One of the things we always maintained on this blog from its concept was that we always played the ball not the man.
I was therefore surprised and must confess quite upset that my integrity was questioned.
I don’t make these reports up why should I? I’m not gaining anything from it?
The information was passed on by a current first team squad player who of course remains anonymous and quite frankly to ask whom it was is quite an infantile and insensitive question. I don’t doubt that things may change before our next game but that is the current status.
OFB
OFB.
2. How could I ask the name of the player as your post did not say it was a player, so your 4th para is a complete fabrication.
OFB
I’m appalled that someone on this forum should question your integrity, but the person concerned hardly ever praises the contributions of other bloggers or shows compassion to those who have health problems so not really one of the Band of Brothers that you quite rightly often refer to on this forum. You’re indispensable on this forum, so please don’t stop posting.
Ken Smith.
My name is exmil so if you are going to attack me have the courage to name me and as for the comment “I don’t praise or show compassion” I will treat that with the contempt it deserves.
I also ask you to quote where I questioned the integrity of OFB.
Having not been back on the blog since I asked a question it was really enlightening to read what some people were quick to post, some did not surprise me. Before I joined AV’s original blog I used to read the Gazette comments searching for any information about the Boro but I quickly realised how unreliable it was and people were posting anything for a reaction, so it was refreshing to find Untypical Boro.
Come on BORO.
___________________________________________
There's a line under all this now. Let's none of us go back on it before Werder throws us all out and turns off the light.
We all say things and I believe no one in here ever really intends to cause offence, even if sometimes written words sometimes can be interpreted as such.
We are all old enough and wide enough ( well we are all old enough at least 😉 ) to let water glide off our duck's back.
Much more for us to worry about is that relegation isn't off the menu yet......
It is being reported today that scientists have come up with a vaccine to prevent people becoming infected with the Borona Virus. Bovid20 as it has become known has been widespread amongst fans this season resulting in scenes of unrest and questioning of the hierarchy at MFC.
In a startling survey released by SLY NEWS today it has been revealed that a large proportion of fans have indicated that they will refuse the vaccine. The “ Anti Vaxxers” have been labelled by “ club insiders” as swivel eyed loons and a sign that the fans are trying to take control of the asylum.At a hastily arranged presser, club officials were asked if this was an insidious move to try and win over support for the new Season Card offer. “Absolutely not” was the reply.When shown a grainy video of replica shirted and blindfolded individuals being loaded onto trains at Cargo Fleet Station a club spokesman responded with, “ rumours of forced vaccination are totally false and the usual attack on the club by the southern based media”More to follow on this breaking news...
You're getting back to your best.
I remember some of those spoofs back in the day of AV's Untypical Boro.
@powmillnaemore I would agree Powmill. Everybody has now had their say and to keep relations intact, best to "put a lid on all this".
History now, lets move on and let bygones be bygones.
Where do we think the club is in terms of money to spend in the short summer break?
Lots of speculation and assumptions coming up....
If we make the assumption that, putting the impacts of COVID-19 to one side, the club was just about complying with FFP rules for this season, then I guess we can assume the club was losing approximately £13m a year. For ease, let's also assume that we were not contributing to the loan players' wages. I will assume that the club will not retain the remaining out of contract players.
My speculation then, is that the following savings would be made:
- Ayala - 25k/week
- Friend - 25k/week
- Clayton - 25k/week
- Shotton - 20k/week
- Johnson - 15k/week
Total savings = £110k/week = £5,720,000/year
To sign the number of players talked about here, that is a very small amount of money just for the fees, never mind the salaries for those players - about £11k/week for 10 free signings. Not good.
If those guesses are anywhere near the reality, then I think it's almost certain that funds will have to raised via player sales.
There is speculation that Stoke will look to take McNair and reunite him with the former N. Ireland boss, Michael O'Neill. If we can recover the £5m paid for him, that would be a no-brainer for me. Assuming he is also on say £20k/week, that would add another £6m to the budget.
Britt would be the next best to go for me, largely due to value for money. If we could get £7m for him and assume he's on £25k/week (I suspect it is more likely £30k/week), that could add a further £8.3m.
Now things are becoming a bit more possible, with a possible £20m to spend, albeit requiring a further two players to be brought in.
The next best to go, again on value for money, might be George Saville but we'd have to take quite a loss there. Who knows, maybe O'Neill would also be interested in him. After that, its the youngsters and players that, really, we ought to keep as their value is likely to go up assuming we have a better season next term.
Whatever, the reality, I think we can put aside ideas that we might have two senior pros for every position. Given the financials and the state of the squad, the first priority is probably just to have two players of any description for each position.
For a 4231:
GK - Pears, Stojanovic, Meijas
RB - Djiksteel, Spence
CB - Fry, Stubbs, Wood
LB - Coulson, Bola
M - Howson, Saville, McNair
RW - Browne
Att. M - Wing
LW - Tavernier
ST - Fletcher, Assombalonga
(I'm sure I've missed some players - obviously a few youngsters who haven't broken through yet)
Based on those bare bones and regardless of the necessary quality, we're short of a centre-back, centre-midfielder and three attacking midfielders/wingers. So I think that's a minimum of 5 players in just to have enough numbers, and a minimum of seven required (by selling McNair and Assombalonga) if we want to have the funds to bring in reasonable quality.
Perhaps another way of looking at it is that we're going to have to play the loan market very well indeed.
@andy-r I don't think we will need (let alone afford) two senior Pro's for each position as such. More a case of having a senior Pro and a good back up breathing down his neck sprinkled with a few good youngsters coming through. I do think we will need to raise some cash by selling some if not all of the Players you have mentioned, in fact I could use one hand to count the Players I would want to keep and I think my list and Plato's would be virtually identical.
You are absolutely right about the loan market, its something that we will need to be utilising extremely cautiously so that we get hungry players and not bloated hangers on with limited ability and huge parent club salaries. Lastly, please no more projects, there is a reason why certain players once had it.
@redcarred Agree with that RR. One of the questions is, though, how many positions do we have that fill that bill of one senior pro and a good back-up? Maybe just centre midfield and up front, where we agree that those are the areas we can raise further funds from.
@andy-r I think in terms of Strikers Britt will be touted around to offload his wages alone and whilst Fletcher has improved I don't think a reasonable offer would be refused. If we signed, just as examples say Lyle Taylor on a free and resigned the Juke I think they would get as many goals as our current two and probably fit Warnock's game plan better for a 1/3rd of the cost and with some serious money left over. We have been linked with 6'5" Kieffer Moore from Wigan who I believe QPR have had a £2.5M offer accepted. I'm guessing we would only firm offers up once we know our fate.
For the defence we need a RB, a LB and two CB's then a back up CB, a back up LB and a back up RB. Maybe Warnock fancies Dijksteel as a RB but I don't think Coulson would the type to win a RB berth but could be used as an attacking WB if he went to a back three or even as a LW. I also suspect that Pears will go out on loan and a big imposing native English speaking Goalkeeper will come in with Stojanovic as back up.
@redcarred I thought Coulson played left side either as a full back or wing back, I also think he could be useful as left midfield/attack. We also have Johnson who in my opinion is played out of position in defence, I think he would be more productive wide midfield/attack, he can deliver some excellent crosses, therefore we need a solid left back. I agree we need 2 CB but if Dael is retained we don’t need a back up CB, using the youngsters as back up and to gain pitch time/experience.
Taylor and Moore would be good calls but can we shift Assombalonga, I would certainly keep Fletcher. Dijksteel impressed me before his injury and even more so since he came back in the little pitch time he has had, I think he will be better than Spence.
I don’t know if we can get Roberts back on loan but if it is financially viable I would have him on a season loan. It has been already stated by NW that we will have to sell to buy, as previously stated I would sell Assombalonga, McNair but I would like to keep the youngsters Spence, Tav and Coulson maybe Fry if we don’t get our asking price, I would also keep Saville. Other than them I cannot see us raising funds from any other players.
Come on BORO.
@exmil Typo from me on Coulson, should have read LB not RB.
I don't think Coulson would be Warnock's preference as a LB, not old enough, physical enough and despite the Tattoo's not intimidating enough. If Warnock stays I'd expect a grizzled cynical LB to keep the defence water tight to come in.
I would sell Assombalonga, McNair but I would like to keep the youngsters Spence, Tav and Coulson maybe Fry if we don’t get our asking price, I would also keep Saville.
If a London club offers £10m for Spence I think it will be accepted. The chance to bring some money into the club to reinvest and the chance for the lad to go back home I think will be too difficult to resist for both parties. Stoke are allegedly interested in McNair and I wouldn't be surprised if O'Neil wanted Saville as well. A combined fee of around £10m for the pair would probably start talks with Boro wanting a bit more.
We can't afford Britt's wages so its now a case of how much we can lose on him. I think Tav has really impressed of late and despite Warnock keeping things tight he does like to have a pacy trick up his sleeve and Tav has shown enough lately to come into his reckoning. Again however, if a silly offer came in then I think financially we would have to reluctantly accept it.
Coulson is still relatively under the radar so I think will stay. Fry I understand is not keen on venturing far but for the sake of the lads career I think a different environment would boost his career. If the talk of £15m materialises I think the club would cash in their chips. Then there is the Ben Gibson conundrum, clearly there is a want to return or at least to get away from Burnley.
Although I don't think it a good move for either club or Ben I think its nailed on that if something can be done it will be and that would take serious money of the potential free'd up above. Personally I'd rather we spent it elsewhere but this is Boro we are talking about. The logic I suppose would be that he would take the Captain's armband and is more vocal than most currently at the club, 100% loyal and committed plus of course family ties. I do think he would cost us another two maybe three decent signings at this level and I'm unconvinced as to whether it would be value for money in a Britt sort of way.
£10m for Spence? £15m for Fry? I seriously doubt that those figures can be realised.
£10m for Spence? £15m for Fry? I seriously doubt that those figures can be realised.
I agree. If I were a supporter of any other club, I think I'd be pretty underwhelmed if my club signed those players for that kind of money. Perhaps rising to those figures subject to clauses being met but certainly up front transfer fees.
So I suppose in a way I agree with RR as well - if we get those offers they would go!
The problem for me is the sheer scale of recruitment required with not a lot of money to go around. Even with the £20m I speculated on earlier, it would be some achievement to bring in the right quantities with the right qualities, and that's before we count the impact of the COVID pandemic.
As an aside since Ben Gibson came up, I would take him back tomorrow but can see no realistic way in which we could afford him. It would take Ben to take a serious pay cut (which might be possible) but also Burnley to practically give him away, or for us to decide to bring very few other players which I can't see as an option.
I'm worried were a very soft team, I think the other clubs around us have fighters we don't.
I think that it depends on how much Burnley still owe us for Gibson, it might be a case of write off the debt and he is yours, just speculating.
Come on BORO.
@andy-r Maybe Burnley would push for a swap. Fry for Gibson.
Can't see Fry wanting to go to Burnley after Bamford and now Gibson's negative experiences.
@andy-r Maybe Burnley would push for a swap. Fry for Gibson.
I don’t see that working for us. I can’t see how we can afford to lose Fry as our only centre back.
So does everyone believe my post last week when I said Clayton had gone on Friday ?
OFB
I wonder if we will end up getting stuck with players like McNair, Saville, Fletcher, Britt and so on. They aren't going to move somewhere for lower wages and I can't imagine any Championship club being able or willing to match their current wages. Maybe one of the relegated Premier league clubs might take a punt on Britt but it's hard to imagine the rest moving. I know Stoke might be interested in McNair but I can't see how their board would sanction paying McNair enough for him to move.
The teams that get promoted this year will be looking for experienced Premier players not our extras.
I could see one of the London teams buying Spence and then loaning him back for a year but I don't think they would offer much. Right now every team outside of the top 1/2 of the Premier league is basically a distressed seller and clubs with healthy wallets are going to screw down what they pay.
Maybe Burnley would do some sort of buy Fry and then loan back Gibson but I feel like Fry has missed his window. Then again I can't see any Premier league teams paying money for a player like Gibson who hasn't played for 2 years.
All in all, even if we do manage to sell one or two players, I suspect our transfer budget is less than last summer.
deleriad, I think that you are spot on with your post. I also believe that the players we have worth selling, if sold will bring in nothing like the fees mentioned on here.
The bottom half of the EPL will have a certain amount of money, but Britt, just cannot see it. Championship clubs with some money including those relegated could possibly be tempted with Britt. But only if his fee is low, maybe 3/4 mil.
How anybody can realistically talk about Ben Gibson returning is beyond belief. As deleriad said, he has not played for two seasons, had a few injuries I believe, and remember in his last season here was poor by his standards. Just how good would he be. A big, big gamble, infact possibly worse than Downing returning?
if NW takes the job for next season, he will have little money and all to do. Mid-table at best?
@original-fat-bob Although you did later suggest that things might change. Let’s all move on.
Now that we know that we can look forward to the insanity of the Championship for another season, I thought that it would be worthwhile to actually look at the players that Middlesbrough have in the first team squad and underline just how young they are. To be clear, I’m not doing this as a complaint but rather to highlight the success that the club has had in slashing its wage bill and replacing expensive players by exciting young prospects from the Academy.
This was exactly the strategy that was outlined at the start of the year and I can think that the info below will show that a certain amount of credit must be due to the management who have seen this through even if the JW experiment proved something of a hiccup along the way.
I have used 23 as the ‘youth’ age cut-off to be set against a suggested ‘peak success’ age for most players of, say, 26-29.
I should also point out that the MFC site which shows members of the first team squad doesn’t include at least one player who is still out on loan, namely Brad James who is busy saving penalties for Gateshead in their playoff battle. I don’t think that there are any others but would happily accept correction.
GOALKEEPERS (2/4 players listed in first team squad are 23 or under)
Zack HEMMING 20
Aynsley PEARS 22
plus
MEIJAS
STOJANOVIC.
There are also two listed in the U-23 squad Sol BRYAN (19) and the afore-mentioned Brad JAMES (21). It’s worth noting our ongoing ability to produce solid goalkeepers.
DEFENCE (7/8 players listed are 23 or under)
Anfernee DIJKSTEEL 23
Dael FRY 22
Nathan WOOD 18
Marc BOLA 22
Sam STUBBS 21
Djed SPENCE 19
Hayden COULSON 22
plus
FRIEND who is out of contract.
This is high on potential but really light on experience and we must expect at least 3 ‘old pros’ coming in. What odds on Aden FLINT coming back?
MIDFIELD (6/11 – I have excluded CLAYTON who is now gone and left in ROBERTS who may not come back)
Marcus TAVERNIER 20
Marcus BROWNE 22
Connor MALLEY 20
Ben LIDDLE 21
Hayden HACKNEY 18
Patrick ROBERTS (22)
plus
MCNAIR
HOWSON
WING
SAVILLE
and
JOHNSON who is out of contract
I think that this shows that the midfield is reasonably well stocked – as NW says - but we need ROBERTS or ANOther as a creator. I should add that WING and MCNAIR are both just 25. BROWNE has the potential to be a solid plus if he comes back from Oxford refreshed.
STRIKERS (4/6 – I have left in NMECHA who almost certainly won’t come back. Leaving him out would make it 3/5)
Tyrone O’NEILL 20
Stephen WALKER 19
Roman BURRELL 19
Lucas NMECHA 21
plus
FLETCHER (who is only 24)
ASSOMBALONGA
Again, this is pretty light but ASSOMBALONGA must be seen as an expensive luxury. Even a sale for Pds5 million plus the salary saving would probably be worthwhile. We need to add somebody here and pray that one of the young players makes a breakthrough.
In summary, its clear that NW is right. The defence and strike-force is incredibly inexperienced and the major effort must be made there. I would suggest that the midfield of HOWSON, MCNAIR, SAVILLE, TAVERNIER, WING plus maybe one new player and whoever else makes a breakthrough could do a job.
It’s a very interesting situation. If, when well-coached, there are, say, 3 or 4 potentially top-class players amongst the kids and 2 or 3 Championship regulars we cans ee what the future might be.
Its certainly not all rosy but the finances must be in a hugely better position and I’m not sure that we need to sacrifice Fry, Spence or even Coulson.
Having read Adam Clayton's comments posted by OFB he states he wasn't offered a new contract, I assumed that those whose contracts were up would have been offered reduced terms but that does not appear to be the case. Was the same true for Ayala and the others and the club just want them off the wage bill?
@selwynoz I think that's a really good analysis. It does highlight that we don't have a "spine." Thing is, a successful team generally grows a spine, it's really hard to buy one. We also don't know how many of the young players will make it. For example, Spence has seemed subdued in the last few games, as if he has lost confidence in his abilities.
Right now, when it comes to a spine, all we have is Howson and he's really a loyal trooper than a captain. I think Saville has finally shown some promise but he's more like a lippy kid than someone who can inspire those around him to play better.
@selwynoz I think that's a really good analysis. It does highlight that we don't have a "spine." Thing is, a successful team generally grows a spine, it's really hard to buy one. We also don't know how many of the young players will make it. For example, Spence has seemed subdued in the last few games, as if he has lost confidence in his abilities.
Right now, when it comes to a spine, all we have is Howson and he's really a loyal trooper than a captain. I think Saville has finally shown some promise but he's more like a lippy kid than someone who can inspire those around him to play better.
I think those are all good points from the pair of you. Whilst the average age of the "Squad" has definitely dropped and no doubt the wage bill by an even greater extent the reality is that around a dozen of them consist of some whose loans have now expired or youngsters who shouldn't be anywhere near the first team just yet. No disrespect to the youngsters and I'm sure one or two perhaps like Stubbs may make a claim in the way Spence and Coulson have but there is no way we can go into this season considering them.
All of us take great pleasure in seeing "one of our own" breaking through and making the grade but they need to go out on loan and get game time and earn rave reviews in the process so they can confidently knock on the Managers door making a genuine claim.
The squad last summer was badly assembled and the above list from Selwyn is a lot weaker than that one which had Ayala, Shotton and Randolph in it for example and we all saw how that turned out.
Some big signings to be made and by that I don't mean in financial terms. We need more street savvy experience and leaders amongst that lot. Outside of the Premiership and those Parachute backed clubs, this summer will see all clubs being a lot more prudent in their transfer and contract dealings.
fair comment about the need for some validation on the younger players. If we look at someone like Wing who came back from a medium stint at Yeovil and made the next step up, we need to look at the young players who have had that experience and we do have quite a few.
Leaving aside goalkeepers of which we have a handful, the first three of the younger players are Stubbs, Browne and Walker. They have had solid experience and should be part of the squad. I’m not sure about Bola but he deserves to be looked at again. Of the rest, I’m not sure about Liddle. Did he go out on loan. He and Malley have been talked about a lot but they may well need the first half of the season on loan. I don’t know enough to say. O’Neill is another who may be ready or not. Wood seems to be a loan candidate.
By way of acquisitions, we definitely need three big experienced defenders to play centre back with Fry and Stubbs and cover full back. Then a number 10 and a striker to replace Assombalonga. The number 10 could easily be Roberts on loan - and we always have Tav who is getting better - but the striker will be the hard one and goals still look to a problem.
Nobody should think that it will be easy.