In terms of Warnock's future and the truth of various rumours doing the rounds on social media, it has often been said if you give someone enough rope then they'll be instrumental in their own downfall. Well some may be interested to read on the club website that they have announced a new Club Partner called Group Industrial UK Ltd - who the article says "lead the way in a variety of industrial services, including rope access and fabrication..."
Like they say, "No noose is good noose"
@werdermout
All you have said has frightened me, and is the most compulsive statement I have seen in favour of instant dismissal of the present incumbent, and the hire of someone who has higher ambitions than us. Our set up is superior to most of the clubs in the bottom half of the Prem, whilst our approach to running a football club is pure trash. Just one final thought. At the moment we allowed the senior players to trash the manager, we were facing a fight against relegation from the prem. With a decent team (very) and plenty of dross to play before the end. We were in a win win situation, probably scramble clear, or go down and come up again. And still fans approved of Gibson's actions??
It is disheartening that this site sunk to starting a topic based on a couple of tweets (from Trolls) that NW and MFC have/are about to part company based on the next couple of results, are we now really on a par with the gazette to post something because it suits an individual dislike of the manager/club.
I can understand posting a rumour of an impending transfer but something as dramatic or important as that of the manager going, I would have thought an individual would verify it first, for example something like that would make the banner on sky sports and NewsNow. A friend of mine posted on WhatsApp the same night “Rumours that Warnock has gone” when asked were did he get the information he replied “ On OneBoro message board and the bloke who posted it is pretty reliable” he is now looking rather naive. Why didn’t I post it on diasboro because I checked every Boro media source I know and nobody had a mention of it.
Do people really think Warnock would agree to a parting of the waves based on the next couple of results, when he has only two recognised fit/available defenders (Hall/Bola) and before you mention McNair, he has to return fit from international duty first.
As regarding Spence, yes he has started well at Forest but at one time didn’t he play well at Boro before he started believing his own hype, I personally hope he continues all through the season and comes back to us a more consistent player, he is contracted to us until June 2023, no he didn’t sign a new contract before going to Forest on loan.
Could someone please post a link were, this season, either Warnock/Gibson/MFC said we were going to get promotion this season, the best I can remember was were Warnock said “we will have a good go of getting into the playoffs” if I remember he also mentioned about half a dozen clubs who were in a better position than us. I know some have giving up on making the playoffs with only 35 games left to play.
One last point, the Hull game, we had 17 attempts on goal, yes only 4 were on target but isn’t that the players fault (bad finishing/decision making) rather than the managers tactics. Only 3 teams out of 24 championship teams last weekend had more attempts, QPR, Cardiff, Birmingham so how bad are the tactics of the other 21 teams. My take on the match, yes we started slowly, why I don’t know same players as Utd match, I am positive NW didn’t say go out and start slowly, then grew into the game and were the better side until the fluke goal, then we chased the game and in the end threw everyone forward and got caught out on the break. The weather conditions (yes same for both sides) were not conducive for a good flowing football game.
Come on BORO.
To be fair Exmil, I don’t think this debate is something triggered by what have already been acknowledged as suspect social media sources. It is a debate that has been on and off (more on than off I think) since the end of last season.
Football is results-driven and when results are not good, then questions are legitimately asked, no doubt internally at the club as well as in fans’ forums and the media. I think the people who have been posting about the manager’s security of tenure in here have also done so from many different angles, with those in favour of keeping him; those that would like him to go; those sympathetic to his predicament with respect to the squad we have and its current state, as well as to the manner in which the management of the club is handling him.
Perfectly legitimate discussion in my opinion and, as we all know, it doesn’t really matter to anyone apart from us in here enjoying listening to everyone else’s opinion and agreeing or disagreeing. Perfectly legitimate for you and anyone to disagree with some of what is being discussed, but not to object to the discussion itself which is topical, mostly intelligent, invariably polite and always wide-ranging.
At the end of the day, nothing is forever, not even Mr Warnock’s tenure, and it is not unreasonable for those who follow the Boro to be interested in what is happening to the manager, when it might happen and what other options there may be.
@powmillnaemore & Exmil. Two good posts/discussions coming at things with different perspectives and conducted in the appropriate manner as expected of this blog but which is too often lacking on others. 😎 UTB say all of us.
@powmillnaemore & Exmil. Two good posts/discussions coming at things with different perspectives and conducted in the appropriate manner as expected of this blog but which is too often lacking on others. 😎 UTB say all of us.
UTB CoB ..... while we may have different hymn sheets, we are all want the best for the the same thing, a Boro to be proud of
Although most statisticians quote wins against matches in charge, I’ve never felt comfortable with that. Perhaps wins against defeats might be fairer, so in that case the statistics would be as follows:
1st Aitor Karanka 80 wins, 49 defeats = 1.633
2nd Jack Charlton 88 wins, 56 defeats = 1.571
3rd Tony Pulis 35 wins, 23 defeats = 1.522 (all Champs)
4th Stan Anderson 139 wins, 104 defeats = 1.337 (all 2nd Div)
5th Terry Venables 8 wins, 6 defeats = 1.333 (all PL)
6th Garry Monk 12 wins, 9 defeats = 1.333 (all Champs)
7th Bryan Robson 127 wins, 101 defeats = 1.257
8th Bruce Rioch 82 wins, 71 defeats = 1.155
9th Lennie Lawrence 61 wins, 53 defeats = 1.151
10th Tony Mowbray 61 wins, 55 defeats = 1.109 (all 2nd Div)
11th Bob Dennison 158 wins, 146 defeats = 1.082 (all 2nd Div)
12th Colin Todd 28 wins, 26 defeats = 1.077 (all 2nd Div)
13th Steve McClaren 97 wins, 93 defeats = 1.043 (all PL)
14th Neil Warnock 23 wins, 24 defeats = 0.958 (all Champs)
15th John Neal 69 wins, 75 defeats = 0.920 (all 1st Div)
This now includes some managers whose win averages against games managed was less than 40% average. Now we see Tony Pulis in 3rd position who’s football was arguably the most turgid, yet John Neal whose football was perhaps one of the most attractive is last. So perhaps as Mark Twain remarked there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
Great stats @ken.
Points per game (as long as they're adjusted for those managing before 3pts for a win) seems like the overall stat to measure success but of course there are lots of factors that go into results, chiefly financial backing and overall expectations at the time.
Indeed, it's that financial backing and expectation that makes Garry Monk's stats much worse in reality than they really were, and conversely what makes Bruce Rioch's so much better.
Gossip and rumour aside, I think it would be surprising if Gibson, Scott and co weren't meeting up to look at how the first quarter of the season has gone. We're in 15th position, closer to relegation than the playoffs. I'm pretty sure that's significantly worse than anyone expected or planned for. It's also a position where if things get worse we are looking at a relegation battle.
This is made worse by the fact that until we suddenly got rid of Spence and Morsy that we had had our first really exciting transfer window in years. Neither the results nor the performances seem to match the ambition.
There are a lot of mitigating factors that Warnock can point to. Up to now you can say that he had a positive instant impact on the club and some of the players but that impact is souring by the game. The trajectory is the same as you always see when a manager starts picking fights. Although we're only at the start of the slope, there's no way off; it's just a matter of when Warnock goes, not if.
I can see good reasons why Gibson might want to keep Warnock in for as long as possible but I do think that we need to take a leaf out of Watford's book. Appoint a manager until 30th June. If we improve, great. If things stay the same, try again next year. If things go south, well that's a problem but you have to figure that any half-way competent manager can keep us in the league. Whichever way it goes, you lance the poison before it festers and buy yourself a few months grace with a new manager.
@exmil I don’t know whether it was my posting of Spence’s Instagram post that you were referring to, but, to clarify, I don’t actually think that he has the qualities to make it in the Championship. Morsy on the other hand is a player I’d like to have kept hold of. I know lots of Wigan fans who rate him extremely highly and I thought he’d do a good job for us.
On a general point, I agree that we should fact check where ever possible, but when we have no games to look forward to (or many decent ones to look back on), the thoughts of the members of Diasboro traditionally turn to talk of a managerial change. And who can blame us 😉
Karanka's Championship figures will be stellar but his Premier league stats may be as bad as the worst of any of our top division stats. (Just checked: won 4, lost 13.)
I presume McClaren's the only manager to have managed us exclusively in the top division which will be partly why his stats look a bit poor. (Missed John Neal.)
Robson's championship stats will look great (2 seasons, 2 promotions) but in each case he managed the best financed team in the league; the epitome of a cheque book manager and not a very good one at that.
Pulis managed to fail to get the best squad championship promoted in his first season then despite getting decent funds in the second season did even worse. I suspect that he might be up there with Robson and Strachan for under-performing despite the support.
I think Rioch, Mowbray, Venables and Charlton look like the only managers to have out-performed their level of support. Lennie did ok with the resources available to him.
@ Deleriad
Nevertheless he was the only manager to get promoted in the last 12 years.
Great stats @ken.
Points per game (as long as they're adjusted for those managing before 3pts for a win) seems like the overall stat to measure success but of course there are lots of factors that go into results, chiefly financial backing and overall expectations at the time.
Indeed, it's that financial backing and expectation that makes Garry Monk's stats much worse in reality than they really were, and conversely what makes Bruce Rioch's so much better.
Yes. Good stats Ken, but like Andy says, it still feels unsatisfactory to compare just wins to defeats.
Points per game does start to take into account the number of draws as well, and therefore gives some consideration to all of the games played under each manager. But even that feels a little unsatisfactory.
The longer a manager is in charge (therefore the overall number of matches under his charge) I think you would expect to see some evening out as the balance between wins draws and defeats will probably tend to some parity over the longer term. In other words it is not really fair to compare Monk's record with Charlton's record for example, purely on simple win ration, or even a simple points per game ratio.
We would need to build in some weighting, perhaps by the relative number of matches for each.
Oh Lordy me ..... then what about the relative value of a win, so what was the position of the team we were playing when we beat them.,....... aarghhhh it is a nightmare.
Perhaps what we should use to measure is the average league position that each manager had for us.... hmmmmmm
I will shut up now I think 😱
Talk of managerial change is not to be unexpected - I think after the results and actual performance on the pitch of Boro have produced since January, many people had already seen enough to be unconvinced by Warnock continuing - others were prepared to see how this season started off once he's got some new players in before passing judgement.
Granted most of the new signings have barely played since arriving due to apparent fitness issues and injuries have left the team being regularly square-pegged - plus after a promising start, players like Ikpeazu and Jones were dropped to allow others to play but they've now also lost some of the sharpness they were showing earlier.
In reality, Warnock is really still only in a job because of his reputation as I'm sure a manager without a track record wouldn't have likely survived our 2021 run of form - certainly not at Watford!
To be honest I’d prefer that additional points were given for the margin of victory, something like in Rugby Union. Perhaps something like only 2 points for a one goal marginal win, 3 for a two goal marginal win, etc. Just imagine the 8-1 win against Manchester City in 2008 would be worth 8 points instead of 3, though how that would help Boro nowadays I can’t imagine.
This is worth a listen:
https://www.mfc.co.uk/news/listen-to-one-of-our-own-the-boro-academy-podcast
Come on BORO.
I think Warnock was appointed for another season in the hope of him pulling off another promotion - he himself said in the summer that "a club like Middlesbrough should be finishing in the top six". While I've not definitively read that Steve Gibson was targeting promotion, most pundits in the press have said Middlesbrough will be targeting promotion this season - some even had us as 5th favourites.
Though logically you could wonder why is Warnock actually in charge for one last season at Boro if it's not in the hope that he could pull off his ninth promotion. It wouldn't make any sense to put him charge for one season in order to just bring in new players, build a team and then retire with a mid-table finish for someone else to rip it up and start again.
I think he's been offered one more season in charge because Steve Gibson thought he could get Boro into the play-offs - plus I think Neil Warnock also thinks he could achieve that goal - I don't believe he's here just to pass the time.
OK, it's still not impossible but Boro have now dropped quite a few points that they could have easily won - the problem is that it's getting harder with each missed opportunity and I already posted that Boro had enough chances to have beaten Hull. Though I thought, as has often been the case, he wasn't really proactive in forcing the issue with tactical substitutions.
Warnock is stubborn and won't give up easily - he'll no doubt be given more time by Gibson but there will come a point where the reason for him still being charge will probably depend on just how convinced either of them are that promotion is still remains realistic. Of course most supporters are less patient than their chairman.
@werdermouth you are correct in that NW will probably be given more time by the chairman, it is his plaything after all and he has wasted chunks of his fortune over the years so it is his prerogative. I wont be one of the fans who say he should sell up and I will be forever grateful to him for keeping the club I support alive and look at the issues that Mr Ashley is having selling a much larger club than the Boro.
This does not mean he is above criticism and as I have said I believe the current manager should be gone and once the fans turn it is unusual to get them back onside. Do any of the contributors to this blog genuinely believe that the manager can get us anywhere close to the playoffs. The last two away results have been terrible, Reading were injury ravaged and Hull, well the last time they won at home in the championship was against us.
I can agree with your reasoning, although there could be another theory, it could have been agreed between SG/NW at the end of last season that there were very little chance of promotion this season as the squad needed a big overhaul, unachievable in one season but with an outside chance of making the playoffs.
So let’s look at our transfer business a bit closer, how much did we spend bringing in 12 players, my rough estimate is about £7.5m:
Payero - reported as high as £6m
Crooks - undisclosed but valued at £630k
Ikpeazu - £783k
The rest either free or loan
players out:
Saville - undisclosed but valued at £3.6m
Morsy - undisclosed but valued at £1.35
The rest released or free giving estimated income of £4.95m, therefore total spend of £2.55m. This is only back of fag packet maths.
To me that is a transitional amount of money rather than an all out assault on promotion, with an outside chance of playoffs. Warnock agrees to stay and try for the playoffs but the real target is in the next couple of seasons once a new management team has been identified by Scott, meanwhile the loan players are assessed over the season with a view to retention/purchase.
That is my thoughts but they may be pie in the sky optimism.
Come on BORO.
@exmil. Whilst I can see where you are coming from, the truth is we will all probably never know the truth of the matter.
As a club we have had a large-ish turnover of players including the arrival of Kieron Scott. In time we may get to understand his role in the club.
However I believe as Werder has said, Mr Warnock was given one more season possibly on the back of his past successes. It has to be said though that the recruitment was not aimed at producing a “Warnock Type “ team. In fact it could be argued, indeed what type of squad/team have we ended up with. Certainly not a NW squad.
So there lays the conundrum, what is Mr Gibson playing at sanctioning a squad that is not fit for purpose, for NW and may be the next Coach that inevitably comes in.
As for the money spent, we will never know. I would doubt that we wrote off nearly 4mil for Saville and from what I have seen, probably only received a paltry 250K for Morsy given his Ipswich 3 year deal and higher wages.
Add the lone fees and possibly higher wages and then you have a larger spend overall. One that I would of thought would have justified a push for a promotion spot. One also has to remember that the monies through ticket sales will be negligible this season.
Wow! FA Cup 3rd Qualifying Round result tonight - CHESTER FC 0 MARSKE UNITED 4. Now home to Gateshead to reach the First Round Proper.
@pedro: I can see your point of view but how much did we owe of the reputed £7m reported fee for Saville, was that written off as part of the transfer, did it equate to £3.6m with what ever payment. As you say we will never know the truth in any transfer dealing, maybe the game itself should enforce transparency and no more of the “undisclosed” fee.
As far as the “new” wages are concerned, do they really equate to that of the out going players, Assombalonga, Fletcher etc. I would suggest our wage bill is now considerably lower.
My point about the loan players, basically on “sale or return” I think is relevant and the young players we have sent out on loan to make or break their careers without being detrimental to our current first team (who could have forecast the injuries) although the cover on the left side was a gamble that backfired. As an example, what if, Spence, Coulson and Woods all came back from loan as Bola and Dijksteel did, then it was worth sending them out.
Each and everyone of us could have a different theory as to what is going on behind closed doors at MFC, we will never know the truth, so it is a matter of wait and see. At the end of the day we all want Boro to do well and eventually get back to the Premiership but be able to sustain ourselves there.
A number of years back I had a member of our home group who used to meet for a few beers before home games, in fact he was a longer season ticket holder than me (and his father who suffered a heart attack leaving the Riverside after a home game) anyway he said to me, before stopping going to Boro matches, that he would prefer us to be in the championship and seeing us win some games rather than struggling in the Premiership hardly winning a game and just avoiding relegation every season. He said this while we were still in the Premiership and stopped going before we were relegated, I believe he now goes to local non league games to watch grass roots football.
Just my thoughts folks.
Come on BORO.
Debate and discussion are the very bedrock of a Forum and a Football Forum debating a Manager's performance and future is going to be high on the agenda especially when he is performing badly. Conversely if a Manager was far exceeding expectations the conversation no doubt would be a fear that we could lose them to a bigger Club.
The reasons (for and against) said performance, errors and mistakes or mitigations fill the void of another boring International Break and keeps this Blog alive otherwise it will shrivel on the Internet Vine. The Blog needs contributions, good, bad and indifferent otherwise there is nothing to read or indeed to provoke and discuss.
Rumours, truths and half truths are what interests participants in any Forum on a range of topics since the Romans (I think) first named it. If there was nothing of note or interest then there would be nothing to discuss and there are now two pages devoted to a discussion on here about the current speculation surrounding the present Manager at MFC and his likely fate along with the possible backdrop.
Much is no doubt speculation but there is usually no smoke without fire and given the Club's present predicament it's perhaps surprising that it's taken this long before rumblings started and sadly Boro fans once again started fighting, literally, at a match.
Most importantly a Forum provides an opportunity for like minded fans to meet together albeit only virtually and have a catch up. Indeed it can even serve as a sense of purpose for some who just like a virtual natter over the garden fence and the last 18 months have highlighted just how crucial that is for many of us.
There is nothing worse than walking into your local to find it empty or nobody you know compared with walking in to a bustling Pub and people shouting hello to you or asking what's your poison. The topics in any forum will not always be to everyone's interest or taste but social interaction is a must for the well being of the Human race generally and topics should never be closed down or off limits (within reason of course) even if we as individuals don't like or agree with them. It's often the ones that somebody has a polar opinion on that are often the most enlightening and therefore valuable and long may it continue.
Debate and discussion are the very bedrock of a Forum and a Football Forum debating a Manager's performance and future is going to be high on the agenda especially when he is performing badly. Conversely if a Manager was far exceeding expectations the conversation no doubt would be a fear that we could lose them to a bigger Club.
The reasons (for and against) said performance, errors and mistakes or mitigations fill the void of another boring International Break and keeps this Blog alive otherwise it will shrivel on the Internet Vine. The Blog needs contributions, good, bad and indifferent otherwise there is nothing to read or indeed to provoke and discuss.
Rumours, truths and half truths are what interests participants in any Forum on a range of topics since the Romans (I think) first named it. If there was nothing of note or interest then there would be nothing to discuss and there are now two pages devoted to a discussion on here about the current speculation surrounding the present Manager at MFC and his likely fate along with the possible backdrop.
Much is no doubt speculation but there is usually no smoke without fire and given the Club's present predicament it's perhaps surprising that it's taken this long before rumblings started and sadly Boro fans once again started fighting, literally, at a match.
Most importantly a Forum provides an opportunity for like minded fans to meet together albeit only virtually and have a catch up. Indeed it can even serve as a sense of purpose for some who just like a virtual natter over the garden fence and the last 18 months have highlighted just how crucial that is for many of us.
There is nothing worse than walking into your local to find it empty or nobody you know compared with walking in to a bustling Pub and people shouting hello to you or asking what's your poison. The topics in any forum will not always be to everyone's interest or taste but social interaction is a must for the well being of the Human race generally and topics should never be closed down or off limits (within reason of course) even if we as individuals don't like or agree with them. It's often the ones that somebody has a polar opinion on that are often the most enlightening and therefore valuable and long may it continue.
As it happened I was just on my way to this Forum today and I thought to myself, "Now there's a funny thing."
I'd probably agree that promotion was more unlikely than likely this season and maybe Gibson thought perhaps Neil Warnock had a methodology that could increase the odds in Boro's favour given his record. Though I'd go back to my view that Warnock was given another season as a punt on promotion rather than being regarded as the best man to blend a new team for the future.
As for the transfer spend, well there wasn't much spent by Championship clubs without parachute payments on transfers in general in the summer. I suspect this is mainly down to the lost gate income during Covid and the need to comply with Financial Fair Play - though I think some Covid losses can be offset.
The other factor is that the compliance period is spread over three years, so Boro's spending during 2019-20 and 2020-21 will have impacted on what could have been spent during the summer, both years were without parachute payments but were still carrying the wages of players signed under Monk - plus the amortised transfers of his signings - for example a quarter of Britt's £15m fee. That's probably why the Sporar and Siliki deals were loans with a view to purchase next season.
OK, accountancy is a complex subject (not really mine) and we never really know what the wages or transfers are but usually the bigger the fee, the longer the contract in order to spread out the costs. Martin Payero has signed a three-year deal, so that fee will be accounted for at around £2m per season.
Perhaps next season will see room for a couple of quality signings to add to what we've added - though Boro may well lose the likes of Fry and Tav, who will be entering the last year of their contracts and it would be negligent to let them run down their contracts and see them leave for nothing.
btw On the subject of Spence, it was interesting to hear Neil Warnock's response last week when asked if he regretted let him go out on loan since he was playing so well. The Boro manager just said he was pleased he was playing so well as: "He'll be worth a hell of a lot more money then" - which seems to indicate Spence has been placed in the shop window rather than with a view to bringing him back into the fold.
More meat on the bone about Marske United’s FA Cup win last night. Chester are two leagues above Marske and this was a replay after a goalless draw at Mount Pleasant last Saturday. The Seasiders were leading 2-0 last night but then had Liam O’Sullivan sent off in the 70th minute, but still managed to score twice more in the final 20 minutes.
I just want to add that although I’m not a Marske United supporter, I acknowledge with pleasure when any of our former Northern League clubs do something special. I’ve been to several FA Amateur Cup Semifinals watching Bishop Auckland usually win at Ayresome Park in the 50s plus the famous Final against Crook Town in 1954 when 37,000 fans were in attendance following 2-2 draws at Wembley before 100,000 and at St James Park in front of another 60,000 fans.
Marske will now entertain Gateshead for a place in the First Round proper when clubs from Divisions 1 and 2 will enter the competition. The Tynesiders are in the same league as Chester, though recently in the National League and were former members of the old Third Division North alongside Hartlepool and Darlington so will be strong opposition. I remember reading about the two Callander brothers Tom and Jack who made 910 appearances between them for Gateshead.
I’m sure OFB will agree with me that local football doesn’t end with Boro, having refereed matches in our local leagues.
Sad to hear of the death of a former Boro stalwart Edwin Holliday. Although not a local lad manager Bob Dennison discovered him from the Barnsley area and signed him for the usual fee of £10 to complete the £50 forward line of Billy Day, Derek McLean, Brian Clough, Alan Peacock and Holliday. He was capped for England in 1959 at the same time as Cloughie, not bad for a Second Division team. Whilst Clough was dropped after two England matches, Holliday kept his place for one more match. A great speedy winger, the only reason Boro weren’t promoted in those days was the leaky defence.
RIP Eddie.
ken, I remember watching that forward line and their prolific goal scoring abilities on that Ayresome Park pitch that was like Wembley. What would they cost today? Boro would probably loan them out...
UTB,
John
A number of years back I had a member of our home group who used to meet for a few beers before home games, in fact he was a longer season ticket holder than me (and his father who suffered a heart attack leaving the Riverside after a home game) anyway he said to me, before stopping going to Boro matches, that he would prefer us to be in the championship and seeing us win some games rather than struggling in the Premiership hardly winning a game and just avoiding relegation every season. He said this while we were still in the Premiership and stopped going before we were relegated, I believe he now goes to local non league games to watch grass roots.
I’ve expressed this view on here before. Our season in the PL was a car crash and, unless your main joy comes from watching the big team, big money stars play in the flesh, I can’t see how anyone could have enjoyed it.
I’d rather be winning games in the Championship than struggling in the PL but hopefully those aren’t the only two options. I can’t see, though, how we can compete in the PL under our present structure - the glory days have long gone and SG is no longer the big cash cow in the herd.
On the subject of our managers and a worry that a big club would come in and steal our successful boss, when did we last have that worry? I guess no one since McClaren has been in that position and, although the timing was terrible, I don’t recall too many of us being that upset to see him go. Can anyone remember another manager being so good that we might lose him? I don’t think I can.
It is worrying that you say, 'Warnock would never agree to go' in my world no manager gets to decide when, if he does,god help the club that employs him (and their fans).