@martin-bellamy. The problem is Martin when you are turning up week in and week out, which he has done for many years but you are not enjoying what you are watching, how much pain can be endured; it’s like going to a restaurant and having a bad meal week in and week out, sooner or later you will stop going because you can’t change the Chef or the staff. 😎
@k-p-in-spain The trouble is, I can always find an alternative restaurant, but being a Boro fan precludes me from choosing a different, more entertaining football club. It’s not easy being a fan is it?
@martin-bellamy. Particularly not when you are a life long Boro supporter, 😂😎
@martin-bellamy - Football is now a "business", a multi-million pound concern rather than a family owned business (eg a local shop where the owner's parents knew your parents, where if you asked them to get something in for you, they would). And where the price differential made it uneconomical to go instead to the mega markets in the local big town. You'd WANT to shop there and for the business to succeed because if you don't use it, you'll lose it.
Obviously you'd expect to buy basic products at a reasonable price. You wouldn't expect the local shop to stock pate de foie gras or vintage claret let alone haute couture clothes or Rolex watches.
I am NOT asking to go back to the 1960s but if you are a supporter of a "smaller club" (not the once-coined Manchelarsepool, because few Teessiders can hardly afford to shop at Fortnum & Mason) you still end up paying Waitrose prices for Asda food.
It's as if your local shop has stopped going to the markets and the Cash+Carry etc for stock, but has been getting M&S deliveries round the back door, taking off the packaging and telling us it has been ordered from small-scale artisan producers at home and abroad. The price charged to the customers will not be a mass-produced price, though.
You'd be upset if the shopkeeper took the label off a 23 year old Latte Lath or Josh Coburn and, instead, told you it was a 23 year old Harry Kane or De Bruyne and, although you could have a discount on the normal Kane price, you'd have to pay more than you'd set out to pay.
People may no longer have a loyalty to their local shop (if there IS a local shop). They may not have a loyalty to a supermarket. They might shop around - go to Sainsbury's one week, Morrison's the next, or Aldi and Lidl.
I could go on, but it's ManU 1-2 Liverpool at present and that attracts my attention on the TV. I don't need a season ticket for that.
@forever-dormo I’m trying to get my head round your analogy. Should I be switching my allegiance to a shop with “barcodes”?
@martin-bellamy - Nice one! It MIGHT come to that. I was bashing away on my mobile phone whilst trying to follow the football on ITV. A 4-3 win at the end of Extra Time in a topsy-turvy game between Man U (4) and Liverpool (3). Easy to watch in the comfort of my living room with a pot of tea and a slice of carrot cake at HT, and all for the price of a TV licence (about £159 pa???). And that will cover watching Antiques Roadshow and Mrs Dormo in particular watching Murder In Paradise later this evening, and all the other stuff we get to see. I now have another brief interlude whilst the chicken drumsticks (some Jerk, some herby) cook in the oven...
What I was trying to say over the football distraction on TV was that if football is a big business, it will end up playing by big business rules. I may have loyalty to that old Local Shop whose owners I knew and my parents knew. That is NOT Big Business but small family firms whose members and staff I know. I have no real loyalty to the multi-billionaire owners of Aldi, Lidl, Sainsbury's etc. They can pay their Chief Executive more millions than I could dream of, they can pay their store and regional managers a lot more than the local shop can pay its staff, but I won't meet that Chief Executive or Regional Manager in my local pub. And if they increase their prices over what I expect to pay, I can decide to shop elsewhere. Or grow my own produce or maybe change my diet. Because I don't owe them any loyalty.
If my local shop were to pay the manager the sort of money the higher-paid staff receive at the sort of stores I have mentioned, they'd have to increase the prices to match. That's when I'd question things.
In football terms that is not going to mean my buying a season ticket at Leeds (God Forbid!) but I MIGHT occasionally accompany my son to the odd game at Newcastle if one of his friends can't go and has a spare ticket. I MIGHT go to a local or non-league game. More likely is that I'd watch Premier League or European games in the comfort of my own home or caravan, at a much lower fee and without the hassle of the travel there and back, the cold, the fact that I can't get a beer or another glass of wine at the match if the mood takes me, but I can at home etc. And the view is pretty good on TV, with replays. There are some games I don't find it convenient to have to travel back to watch, yet I've paid for them. I have a better selection of wines and whisky at home anyway. Could maybe do without sometimes inane commentary or "colour" on TV but you can't have everything!
"We've got to increase prices to keep up with the Big Businesses". That's fine if you see yourself competing with Big Businesses. Might be better to cut cloth according to the purse. Do you want 14,000 people going to games next season, paying say £575 per season or 28,000 at £350? This club is not Manchester United, City or Arsenal. If people are not happy, they'll not go. The price point is the difficult issue. Imagine you wanted to go regularly with a family (say a wife and adult son or daughter). You'd have to factor in the cost and supporters have to decide whether it would be worthwhile, or whether they fancy instead that hollday abroad or whatever else they are interested in.
I have been a season ticket holder since the Riverside opened its doors. There will not be enough of us to keep the club afloat, and the players it wants to sign in the contracts they'd like. We die off or can no longer afford the tickets or ill health takes its toll. The club NEEDS the less-committed roll-up supporters, the ones who can't go to ALL the games but want to go to SOME - if the price is right.
It might be that football has reached "peak sell". Where are the thousands now who used to flock to the chariot races of the past?
@forever-dormo Judging by some of their behaviour, I suspect some of the chariot fans were at Cheltenham this week.
Gentlemen, please remember that the Newcastle fans have waited 59 years for a throphy. And counting.
Up the Boro!
@jarkko - As I regularly remind my son...
I have, to be fair, tried to temper his enthusiasm about the club's potential under its very wealthy owners by pointing out the FFP rules (as they were) might mean there can be no immediate revolution and that a trophy winning breakthrough may take 10 years. After all the Man City, Liverpool, ManU, Arsenal, Chelsea etc owners are not going to make it easy by stepping aside! It might have been easier 20 years ago
@jarkko. And I would bet Jarkko, that not one current Newcastle season ticket holder would swop their current position for the League Cup Final win and the Final in Eindoven.
@forever-dormo. A couple of very good posts there Dormo, aided by Martin and KP.
Personally, I believe that Mr Gibson and MFC have got the ST pricing structure all wrong.
As you said, and only as a suggestion, is it better to have 28000 at 350 or 14000 at 575. Of course it is, well in my opinion.
A big issue with the ST's is the prices for the younger supporters going with the Father or Mother say.
The Family enclosure is sold out, well this season anyway. So near my seat are a fair number of under 18's having to pay 210 pounds. A big ask.
Also near me, is a large swathe of empty upper lever west stand seats, empty every match except for two or three games.
The prices are too high, the walk up prices are too high, the football entertainment level at the Riverside has been too low.
The players are being paid salaries that are generally too high across football in the EPL and Championship.
One could argue quite strongly that it costs a lot of money to support "the Boro" taking into account all the other add ons and without a guarantee of entertainment of some kind. SEVEN WINS AT HOME is it now?
The BBC said the crowd was 25300 or so on Saturday. I think that is amazing baring in mind, Blackburn only sold 1000 tickets and the 22000 Boro ST's. So over 2000 walk ups.
Well next season I truly believe that Mr Gibson and MFC will be rather surprised at the drop in support and we will not be getting that size of crowds. Or may be they won't.
Well, the only big question remaining now for this season is:
CAN WE FINISH ABOVE SUNLAND? I think Carrick should make that his personal ambition for the 8 games to come! Nothing else matters!
Well, obviously a club should aim to win all its games if possible (but even the Arsenal "Invincibles" didn't win all their games, just didn't lose any). But at some stage, and in a situation where there is no mathematical possibility of getting into the Play-Offs and we want to see how our youngsters fare in first team league fixtures, surely the best of the young lads have to be given a chance before the end of the season? Otherwise they get a year older and a year nearer to being moved on, without EVER testing them. If Leo P, as Caretaker whilst waiting for the appointment that turned out to be Michael Carrick, hadn't put Hayden Hackney into the team, would we ever have found out about him?
If you don't shoot, it's difficult to score. If you don't buy a ticket, you can't win the Lottery. If you don't give youngsters a chance, you'll never get to see how good they are.
Hackney, once tried, has played whenever fit (admittedly that means he has missed quite a few games!). You sort of have a feeling that if Pele had been a BORO player, as 17 they'd still have been saying "Give him some time. He's not ready yet - it's a man's game" when, in reality, he shook the world in Sweden's 1958 World Cup. Ditto Michael Owen, Ryan Giggs and Wayne Rooney if they'd been at BORO.
My local Finnish newspaper writes today that the Finland National team has injury concerns. Striker Marcus Forss injured his leg in the weekend so he will undergo further tests on Monday. After this, it will be decided whether Forss will be able to join the team.
Finland will meet Wales in Cardiff on Thursday evening.
Up the Boro!
@jarkko - It looked to me as if he'd pulled his hamstring. And he walked very slowly and carefully from the field, some of the time holding the back of his thigh. It didn't look to me as though he'd be fit to play within a week, even if it was just precautionary. Maybe if he DOESN'T play, he could be OK for Boro after the international break, but we will have to wait to see. If he did play and it was made worse, that would be the end of Forss this season.
I, for one, will be renewing my season ticket even though it has gone up by £40, then again how many other things in life have increased by the same percentage over the last year. When I came back to England in 2001 and I got my first season ticket, I swore I would never give it up (after waiting over 30 years to be able to attend matches) even if we ended up in the Conference League. Maybe 29 years in the Army has built in a higher sense of loyalty than some but I do understand those who live far away (as I once was) and the additional cost rises in travel/ hotels etc, make it it too expensive. What I disagree with is the level of entertainment with Carrick, who like some of the new players are learning on the “job” in the championship, after sticking with the club through eras such as Strachen, Pulis, Woodgate, Warnock etc. £40 divided by 23 home games equals a rise of £1:74 per game, I suggest the cost of your ale in one session in the “sweaty sock” costs more than that.
IMHO I think we have the nucleus of a very good young side to build a team, not only to compete for promotion but to sustain it in the Premiership, players like Lath, Silvera, VDB, Azaz, Bangura, Engel added with Dieng, Fry, Smith, Clarke, Lenihan, Hackney, McGree, Jones, Howson, Coburn, Forss, yes we might lose some in the summer but I think we will have incoming as well, spending as much as we can through FFP and sustainability, it might take another couple of seasons but I am certainly along for the ride UTB.
The above is my opinion and as I don’t know everybody’s circumstances, each must make their own choices, I personally love the match day experience, I watch every away game on the TV but it is nothing like being at the game itself.
Come on BORO.
@exmil - An absolutely valid point of view, well expressed.
My concern is that we will not see the good prospects (VDB, Hackney...) playing very long at Boro. And unless they are replaced with equally good or better, we may be destined to stay where we are for a long time. For BORO to be promoted it would take retention of the better players, really good young players fighting their way through the ranks (thus saving the club money) and a really successful summer transfer window. And, as much as anything else, a LOT OF LUCK. Like, for example, a season without crippling injury crises following each other throughout the season.
@exmil I agree with most of your post, although your supposition that you may be more loyal because of your ex-military career doesn’t ring particularly true for me. Obviously, I’ve never served in the Armed forces, so I have no personal experience on which to base my thoughts, and I’m not sure I’d have lasted long in any event. Loyalty, for me, is a two way street - you reap, as you sow.
@forever-dormo It is reported that the first initial discussions with VDB have already taken place with a view to a new extended contract (his present one runs until 2027) also reported that discussions with Carrick, Howson and Hackney about new contracts are in the pipeline, if not already started, which shows the ambition of the club and the direction it is going in.
Looking at last summer’s signing, which most were classed as future prospects, played into the first team earlier than planned (because of injuries), how many can be classed as failures this season. Yes, there is need for improvement from most but their first season in the championship (some from other countries and leagues), they were thrust into the first team together when ideally they would have been introduced in ones or two’s bit by bit.
Come on BORO.
@martin-bellamy In my post regarding being ex army I did say more than some not everyone. When I joined in 1970, the basic training weeks was were the army stripped down a civilian recruit and rebuilt the individual into a trained soldier, obeying orders and looking after each other in your squad, platoon, company or regiment.
I couldn’t count the number of times I had heard people say, when talking about the yobs, vandals terrorising the estates nowadays, that they should bring back conscription into the forces to teach them some values in life. On my estate, we have youths of 13/14/15 riding bikes around the estate in the early hours of the night (2/3 o’clock) trying house front doors, car doors or breaking into sheds to see what they can steal, single mums are very nervous around the estate and they are always on Facebook sharing doorbell camera footage of them snooping about. Since I joined the army and then retired back into civilian life, I have been astounded how society has declined in those 29 years, one of the jobs I have had was a Middlesbrough Street Warden for two and a half years and that certainly opened my eyes. I don’t agree with bringing back conscription as not all youths are that way inclined but society on the whole lacks respect, not just to police, teachers, emergency services but to shop workers and every day individuals. Apologies if I caused upset with my comment in my earlier post.
Come on BORO.
@forever-dormo I’m trying to get my head round your analogy. Should I be switching my allegiance to a shop with “barcodes”?
When my son was young, he has long flown the nest, he asked if he could have a Mags top, he was informed that if one was purchased for him he would be going to live with his nanna
@paulinboro - That's maybe where I went wrong. I should have said he'd have to go to live with his Aunt & Uncle (and Grannie & Grandpa) near Ullapool. If I'd done it early enough, he'd have had free University education as well! Curses!
@forever-dormo We have a similar system to Scotland. The universities are free in Finland.
As my doughter has a similar university studies as you have, Dormo, I wonder how much I saved approximately compared to the UK. Newcastle, Oxford or Cambridge.
Do I remember correctly that your son went to study in Newcastle? In a magpie's nest?
Up the Boro!
@exmil I certainly didn’t take offence, but thanks for your response. Personally, I think the problems in society which you cite, have their roots in inequality and lack of opportunity, rather than a need for conscription. We’ve all agreed to avoid overt political discussion on this Forum, so I’ll keep my views on who’s to blame to myself.
@jarkko - The system in the UK has changed greatly over the years. Maybe I had thee best of it (as with many other things in my life so far). I went to University in the 1970s. At that time there were no fees payable by the large majority of British students for the teaching element of their course at Universities in the UK - they were paid directly to the Universities either by the national Government or the student's own Local Authority (I don't know which) without any contribution from the student.
Non-repayable Grants were also paid for students' living expenses (books, rent, food, clothes, travel, drink etc) by the student's own Local Authority, but were "means tested" - the lower the family income the higher the grant the student received beacuse it was felt the family could afford to contribute more. A wealthy family would be expected to pay all the student's living expenses (just as they'd probably pay if the student had remained living at home), with the student receiving either a nominal Maintenance Grant or no Grant at all. In my case I had a student grant that was almost a full grant, paid to my bank in 3 instalments with each payment being made at the start of each University term. Obviously any money from parents would be a bonus! When I first went to University, the students at Cambridge, Oxford & London were given a slightly higher Grant than students in the rest of the country because the expenses there were thought to be higher than elsewhere. I have to say that the money I received as a Grant was more than sufficient for me to live on and, when I came home after 3 years, I had money left in the bank despite my having done my best to spend it.
From 1998 the (then) New Labour Government introduced a method of payment for University education which depended on how much their parents earned. Maintenance LOANS could be paid if the student/parents qualified on financial grounds, but would be repayable with interest at a later time when the student's earnings rose above a certain level. Tuition Fees were introduced later (initially up to £3,000pa but from 2012, then initally under a Conservative/Lib Dem coalition Goivernment, that became "up to" £9,000pa as inflation resulted in increases).
My son went to Durham University, not Newcastle, though the students at Durham sometimes went to nearby Newcastle for nights out etc. However since he started University before Tuition Fees went up I think they remained the same for him until he left Durham - at about £3,300 pa - and he had a small Maintenance Loan as well (the rest of his living expenses we just paid to him).
The situation NOW is that University Tuition Fees in the UK, after some increases, remain approximately UP TO £9,250pa. That has caused major issues with most Universities complaining that the cost of providing the education has risen far above that level, so they would be making a loss on each student. Some parts of the UK (not England) have introduced policies that enable them to offer reduced or free (to the student) Tuition Fees for students coming from their part of the UK.
The question of payment for University education has been the subject of a lot of political argument. Labour wanted greatly to expand the proportion of the youth population which attended University so, to pay for the expectedly vastly increased educational budget, and to much internal opposition (eg Scottish Labout MPs) it was Labour which introduced the student loans and fees structure. Scotland and Wales (& NI?) tinkered with the provisions effecting THEIR students. When the Conservative Government won the General Election in 2010 with Liberal Democrats assisting them in a Con/Lib-Dem coalition Govt, it had been a policy commitment by the Lib Dems not to increase student fees from the earlier £3,225 but when in coalition, they supported the rise in fees and suffered much criticism. The Labour Opposition Leader Keir Starmer intended in 2020 to abolish tuition fees but more recently has indicated that, no doubt because of the cost, should Labour win the next Election it would not pursue University education free from tuition fees.
So we now have a position that, in the UK, most Universities are receiving the maximum of £9,250pa for tuition for UK & Irish students, but are losing money doing so. Therefore many of those institutions are welcoming more and more students from abroad (whom they may charge MORE than £9K pa) to fill their available places. Of course those students will not receive maintenance grants but will be supported by their own families or Governments. It might still be a lot cheaper for them (unless you won a shcolarship there) than going to, say Harvard or Yale. It might not be a problem for Universities in the UK with an international profile for offering high-quality research-led teaching on well-established courses respected throughout the world, but it may be a problem for less-known, more poorly funded courses at other establishments and this MIGHT lead to some of those institutions failing, going bust. Like Championship football clubs spending in the hope of being able to compete in the Premier League but finding it doesn't work out for them. To be fair to those educational institutions, I suppose if I owned a car saleroom and could sell my cars to UK citizens at £9K or to people from the USA, Canada, Switzerland etc for £22K, I might consider selling more to people arriving here from abroad than to the locals.
One result of current University funding is that a sizeable (increasing?) minority of parents might conclude that, in the UK, it may be better for their children to train or enter an apprenticeship in a trade where they can earn money at the same time, and where they will not incur student debt for the future. So, whilst some areas may make it worthwhile for very able students to study for a University degree in order to move into a particular profession, there may be other (often more lucrative) areas of employment open to people who didn't go to University. Some areas of study at University may prosper whilst other subjects wither away. There will always be the need for plumbers, builders, electricians, chefs etc, for whom a University degree is not essential, but how many Graduate beauty and nail technologists, or telephone sanitising specialists, will be required on the Golgafrinchan "B" Ark, and who will be prepared to pay for their training and education?
(I don't think any of the above is controversial in a political sense, because it seems only the Greens and the Nationalist parties in the UK are suggesting free University education such as I had in my time. None of the UK-wide major parties seem to be suggesting a different model at the moment. I have just, apart from the flippant comment last sentence in the previous para above, tried to summarise the previous and current position in the UK. Wales & Scotland have a different approach to England).
@forever-dormo Crikey, I hope you’re not in charge of who goes on the Golgafrinchan B Ark - as a former “insurance salesman” I suspect I’d be first on board, even though I paid for my own education to Chartered Insurance Broker status, having decided my family couldn’t afford to fund me through university.
It is reported that Boro have held positive talks with Jones and McGree about extending their contracts beyound the end of next season.
Come on BORO .
https://www.mfc.co.uk/news/2024/march/19/historic-football-governance-bill-announced/
What are the thoughts of diasboro 🤔.
Come on BORO.
@forever-dormo What a through answer. I think the English was OK for me but I think I have to read it again to underdtand the context. So much info - even though your last sentace said something like you have tried to summarise the previous and current position in the UK 😉.
I do not know the Finnish system as well as you know yours, but my doughter did not live at home and had some loans of about 20 000 € after graduating as a lawer. Half of it was spent on starting a business while studying. The rest was spent on rent, food etc.
Love this blog. Up the Boro!