Stircrazy
At least Boro will have the goalscorer we need with Josh Coburn leading the line in Division One next season. As for a strong midfielder is Lee Cattermole too young to be considered as Boro’s next coach?
All in all is this the worst Boro side since the days of Malcolm Allison? We’re back in the realms of the old musical joke - Why should I watch the Boro? They never came to see me when I was bad!
I think that quote was attributed to former Boro comedian Dave Morris in the old BBC Home Service programme ‘Club Night’ in the 1950’s or was it the Stockton comedian replying to the stuttering Eli Woods about the same era.
Whilst talking about the possible new manager having experience, I have read a report that if Carrick was to be appointed then he hopes to bring ex Man Utd coaches Rene Meulensteen and Mike Phelen, would that change peoples mind on Carrick 🤔
Come on BORO.
I see that Josh Coburn scored for Bristol Rovers yesterday after being given his first full start by Joey Barton:
The interesting point of that article is we have a recall clause in January.
Come on BORO.
@andy-r - I'm not saying that (your post at 10.31am yesterday). The manager doesn't HAVE to be all that experienced. Robbo and Schteve weren't experienced managers. Though if I were to have a serious hospital operation, it would be good to know that the surgeon has done it before "in the flesh" rather than just read the books or seen it "virtually".
Neither am I saying he should have limited control over transfers if, by that, you mean no say at all. Obviously the bloke putting in the money should have the final say. It's OK for a manager/coach (whatever) to suggest names of players he is interested in, so that the "acquisitions team (AT)" - is that what we call them? - can look at the possibilities. It always tests the argument to take it to extremes, but if the manager would like Harry Kane or Haaland, he is always going to be overruled by the Boro acquisitions team and the bloke who puts in the money as (1) the club couldn't afford the purchases OR the wages (2) the player and/or his wife wouldn't want to come to Teesside at this point, so it would be pointless. Even on a less exalted level Boro couldn't afford a £15M player let alone one worth more than 10 times that figure. It would be very easy to spend someone else's money. I accept it may be pointless to foist unwanted players on the manager - they won't be selected for the First Team and they will soon see that they are being shunned - but that is dealt with by having discussions between the AT and manager before the player search begins. In fact those discussions might be more or less continous (not just in June and in December). "Do you think it a good idea to look at X and Y to fill those gaps in the First Team, but also to look at these 18-21 year olds we might develop over the next couple of years into a top player and/or sell on...?" It should be a discussion but the manager should not have control - it isn't his money.
I'm not even saying he shouldn't bring in ANY of his own staff. He may well have people he has worked with, or got on well with, whom he would like to bring in with him. But it is the wholesale bringing-in of a coterie of his mates which is something I think is a flawed model. It is expensive: unless you find other roles for them, you end up having to pay compensation to a raft of professionals dismissed to make way for the new "team". If he wants to bring in his Ass't Manager with whom he's worked at other clubs (maybe unsuccessfully as the new manager is, presumably out of a job at present), Coach, Goalkeeping Coach, Physio, Sports Science team etc, that may very well mean that a Physio or whatever who has been doing a great job has to make way for a new person whose qualifications and suitability for the new club has not been assessed or, as someone else suggested, been the subject of interview.
One of the main reasons why it's not a good idea to throw everyone out and start again is that, these days the average life of a manager is like the average life span of a pet gerbil or pet mouse. In the meantime there will be backroom/medical/physio staff who have built up good trusting relationships with the playing staff and they would have to start all over again.
It is particularly true that anyone involved with the yout set-up should be at arm's length from the manager. By that time that promissing 16 year old is approaching the First Team, the manager is likely to have been sent up the road long beforehand.
Bringing in a deputy or assistant is one thing, making wholesale changes is another. I read (was it earlier in this stream or in a newspaper or on social media?) that the new manager should be able to bring in his own team knwing that they will be loyal to HIM. I really disagree with that. Is it the new manager who pays their salaries? Do they sign contracts of employment with the new manager? I don't think so.
I don't know who Boro will go for as the new manager. I do hope that Leo will be retained in some capacity. We know HE is loyal to the club, the supporters, the area and will be, whatever happens. But I would like to think the next manager is one who can work with the senior management and the backroom staff because the problems are clearly unlikely to be ones which can be erased simply by changing the manager. Comaptability of the new manager with senior management is essential. What we need is a PLAN, maybe a longer term plan so not expecting immediate results, and a team of people at the top who can work together to make that plan work. (Of course, I hoped that might have been the position when CW joined Boro! What do I know....?).
Anyway... this outpouring is probably partly due to the feeling of general "URGHHH" I feel afer yesterdays game at Millwall. I haven't yet read the comments above, which must have been left by less-than happy contributors. So: I will take a breath, make a pot of tea and sit down with a cup and go through the messages left by those who got here before me
I agree with all of that, FD. My comment was entirely tongue in cheek.
When it comes to the Boro, all I’ve got left is my sense of humour!
I have to say though, that having a pet cat with a strong hunting instinct, the average life span of a mouse in our house is extremely short.
I agree with all of that, FD. My comment was entirely tongue in cheek.
When it comes to the Boro, all I’ve got left is my sense of humour!
I have to say though, that having a pet cat with a strong hunting instinct, the average life span of a mouse in our house is extremely short.
And you need that, because its not funny watching the Boro at the moment...
Powmill
The trouble with cats though is that they often bring the dead mouse indoors as a trophy, and that’s the only trophy Boro are likely to win in my lifetime.
I'm not sure if Carrick would be better advised to bring in an assistant with recent Championship experience - I'm not sure if Meulensteen and Phelan are just more jobs for the boys as neither has had success since leaving Man Utd.
Since Meulensteen left United in 2013 he has had a string of failures - just 16 days with a Russian Premier League team before being sacked, 3 months as head coach of Fulham before being sacked, 6 months in charge at Maccabi Haifa before being sacked and then resigned after 6 months in charge at an Indian Super League team after poor results.
Likewise, Phelan didn't do much since leaving United the first time with just a six months as assistant to Steve Bruce at Hull in 2016 before being given the manager's job when Bruce was sacked but lasted only 6 months before aalso being dismissed. OK, he returned to Man Utd again as assistant to Ole Gunnar Solskjær and remained as a coach when Ralf Rangnick took over but "without taking part in training sessions" - which must have made coaching tricky.
Maybe Phelan could be a sounding board for Carrick but he has no knowledge of the Championship and perhaps that is what is needed for him to hit the ground running.
- @forever-dormo That’s a good post Dormo.
Unless the backroom staff employee has had a poor assessment when having their Annual Review 🤣 and are not cutting the mustard, they are after all professionals is the sense we would talk about, as against Foorballers being professionals, then why do they need changing. I believe the club doctor has been there for years.
Yes it would be OK for the new incumbent to bring in one or two at most, but then “jobs for the boys” which if true about Carrick should be a no, no given welder’s information.
Planning for the long term means just that, wholesale staff changes every time does not help the club one iota, notwithstanding the cost.
As I said previously I have a lot of sympathy for Mr Gibson. A difficult choice, not much to chose from including hangers on and also too many past mistakes.
Werder, An appointment by Monday? Choose in haste, repent at leisure.
Given the severity of our situation, I would be more inclined to seek a Coach already in employment with some experience of success even at the lower levels. Edwards apart possibly.
Get this wrong and we are goosed that is certain. If the club needs another week so be it. It is not likely we will beat Blackburn anyway.
Clive, Wilder played as a RB for Sheff Utd when they got promotion from League 1 and from the Championship. So he has some experience in that area. Obviously not enough to solve our problems.
Your news from Bristol is devastating, why? Because we have a deadly history in the loan and transfer market. What will happen next is, a crawling fool from our staff will tell us that "no, we have no recall in our agreement. We will be very angry, then, as tempers rise, another buffoon will hint that they have the right to buy him should they so desire, next will come the news that Bristol will set the price, and by the way, they do not do add On's as, in their opinion, these new fabled tricks are too clever for them.
Just an afterthought, I believe that we should stop looking for a manager and instead search for a really top flight coach. It is obvious that no club worth the name today even considers the term 'Manager'. Any decent club is praised, or criticized, on their level of coaching, and if it requires an assistant as well, then, so be it.
Michael Carrick is looking to bring in ex-Manchester United coaches Rene Meulensteen and Mike Phelan if he gets the job at Boro
OFB
Powmill
The trouble with cats though is that they often bring the dead mouse indoors as a trophy, and that’s the only trophy Boro are likely to win in my lifetime.
Surely, they’ve already won a trophy in your lifetime, Ken. I seem to recall a victory on 29th Feb, 2004.
Michael Carrick is looking to bring in ex-Manchester United coaches Rene Meulensteen and Mike Phelan if he gets the job at Boro
OFB
OFB you are slipping, see my post at 12:55 😂
Come on BORO.
Powmill
The trouble with cats though is that they often bring the dead mouse indoors as a trophy, and that’s the only trophy Boro are likely to win in my lifetime.
Surely, they’ve already won a trophy in your lifetime, Ken. I seem to recall a victory on 29th Feb, 2004.
Not forgetting the famous Anglo Scottish Cup victory either 😉
@original-fat-bob And if that is correct and as Werder pointed out with his detailed information, we should not be even looking at Carrick never mind interviewing him.
Just out of interest after some posts concerning lines ups. Yesterday there were ten games, twenty clubs.
The following teams lined up 4-4-2 or a variation of it. (BBC website)
Blackpool, Watford, Burnley, Millwall, Norwich, Stoke, Sheffield Utd, Sunderland and Cardiff.
That is nine out of twenty, so not a large difference in style.
Interesting that the three relegated clubs have that system.
Of course the better Coaches may change their system to suit the opposition?
The main reason I think Boro need to appoint a head coach by Monday is that this week is only one of two that doesn't include a midweek game before the Qatar World Cup. Leo already mentioned after the Birmingham game that there was no time to do anything meaningful on the training pitch before Millwall - Thursday was a rest day and Friday was only light training and some video analysis.
Since this will be the pattern for six of the next eight games, how will any new coach be able to instill anything different with tactics or shape if they basically have probably only one day a week in between games? While I understand the risk of appointing in haste, surely Steve Gibson and Kieron Scott must have a good idea what they want to see in a head coach.
My worry is that they don't have a standout candidate and it may be more about making the least bad appointment or some kind of fudged decision where they offset the weaknesses by going for a cobbled together package - like by including the likes of Phelan and Meulensteen.
Perhaps they should appoint an interim head coach until the Qatar World Cup to stabilise the situation if the process needs longer as I think Leo has his limitations as an enthusiastic cheerleader pumping up the players. Boro look rudderless and the players looked shot of confidence as soon as they go behind - they probably like Leo but do they believe in him as a coach?
On the subject of managers bringing in their own team of coaches, I’d just like to gently remind people how successful Brian Clough was when he had Peter Taylor alongside him, and how less effective he was without him.
Just saying, like…
Just out of interest after some posts concerning lines ups. Yesterday there were ten games, twenty clubs.
The following teams lined up 4-4-2 or a variation of it. (BBC website)
Blackpool, Watford, Burnley, Millwall, Norwich, Stoke, Sheffield Utd, Sunderland and Cardiff.
That is nine out of twenty, so not a large difference in style.
Interesting that the three relegated clubs have that system.
Of course the better Coaches may change their system to suit the opposition?
My impression is that teams in the UK are fairly evenly divided between 3 at the back and 4 at the back. As you say, yesterday 11 teams lined up with 3 at the back, and 9 with 4. There also seem to be more clubs playing with two strikers these days.
I'm not sure that there is any advantage in one system over another; it probably just comes down to which one suits your players best. We've just spent 2 windows buying players to play 3-5-2. We have massive holes if we try to set for 4 at the back and don't have anyone who can play the #10 role in 4-2-3-1. Mind you, our recent performances have felt like one massive hole anyway so it may not make any difference.
@werdermouth I can certainly understand your reasoning Werder. What really worries me is that this next appointment may only last until we get relegated at the end of the season.
As many have posted, the next incumbent is getting a poison chalice inheriting this dismal squad of players.
Apparently BBC Radio 5 live are saying Carrick has got the job.
Come on BORO.
I guess the BBC wouldn't make up stories so it must be true - a leap into the unknown that nobody can say if it will go well - now where did I put my half-full glass again...
Walter Winterbottom was England’s first manager although he never had a say in selecting the team. The selection panel was made up of chairmen of certain top English league clubs who even refused to allow players of their own clubs to play for England if their own club had an important match to play on the weekend. Who’d want to be an England manager under those conditions? Yet Winterbottom held the post for almost 16 years against 30 different countries covering 139 matches of which 78 were won and 33 were drawn, and was expected to mold the players into a world-beating team. That may have been the precursor of Len Shackleton leaving a blank page in his book ‘Clown Prince of Soccer’ on the knowledge of club chairmen. I’m sure Brian Clough would have agreed with him. I don’t wish to cast aspersions on Steve Gibson, but he does have a habit of getting it wrong when selecting Boro managers. Let’s hope he gets the next appointment right, though there is a saying of “He who pays the piper, calls the tune” Just saying, like.
Whist I’m on about some recollections of my past, the Northern Ireland international Danny Blanchflower complained to the Aston Villa coaching staff that coaching was pretty boring consisting of press-ups and running around the football pitch, and asked why they rarely saw a football until match day, but was told it made them hungrier for the ball on match day. He was much happier when he signed for Bill Nicholson’s Tottenham, though not so happy when he refused to appear the subject of ‘This is Your Life’ stating it was an intrusion of his privacy and left fellow Irishman Eamonn Andrews still holding the little red book unopened. .
Blanchflower had firm views on football once stating “The great fallacy is that the game is about winning. It is nothing of the kind. It is about glory, doing things in style and with a flourish, going on and beating the lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom”. Perhaps those were Chris Wilder’s intentions, but sadly felt short towards the end.
As you say, different coaches, different formations. What makes one coach worth whatever he demands, And another just a coach, is the actual daily grind of practice, and I do mean literally practicing which players are to take up which positions during which type of attack, where to place the final ball, and who will deliver that ball. Above all endless practice to produce the pass at the pace and position which will produce a goal or a near miss every time. Very few players are much Good at passing with accuracy during an attack, ours for instance kick the ball towards a teammate, and that is their duty done, any consideration of his speed, the precise pace and or the direction of his run is a matter of blind luck. As said earlier, the depth and concentration of moves practiced in training can be seen by watching Manchester City play. Unfortunately it is addictive.
Just a final point, our wilful or stupid habit of ignoring and loaning or selling our good Young players as we sink down the league is endemic, yet again we send out a very promising Young striker, After ignoring him as we sink like a stone
Interesting report from The Sun...
Former Middlesbrough boss Chris Wilder was sacked by Head of Football Kieran Scott with the 55-year-old not seeing owner Steve Gibson in person.
Not sure though if it's reliable as the BBC for printing the truth...
Interesting report from The Sun...
Former Middlesbrough boss Chris Wilder was sacked by Head of Football Kieran Scott with the 55-year-old not seeing owner Steve Gibson in person.
Not sure though if it's reliable as the BBC for printing the truth...
I would have thought it was part of the Head of Football responsibilities, as the saying goes “why have a dog and bark yourself”.
Come on BORO.
Very fair point, Exmil.
Thiugh perhaps the saying could be updated to “if you have a dog walker, you don’t have to pick up the @?!@“.
Though you let him off the leash you still have to pick up his mess...
I think we're thinking along the same lines 😉