@deleriad 

I hope you are right, but I read that "my job starts now" quote as way of disclaiming any responsibility for the previous two years.

I also noted his saying that the days of discovering a player like Buendia have long since gone, a classic way of managing and lowering the expectations around his appointment and a point he probably did not make in his job interview

@jarkko 

It would only make sense to me if it was a loan only to January to get him match fit and then have the option for Coburn to return to Boro if he's looking like a Championship striker.

Though if he's deemed good enough for the Championship this season at Plymouth then why not at Boro? The obvious risks are if he doesn't get selected regularly then he'd be better off staying at Boro.

Perhaps he's not regarded as a serious option by Carrick for his style of play, which prefers a pacey lone striker, flanked by forwards with pace with a playmaker behind. On that basis, where would Coburn fit into that formation?

@deleriad 

I agree with much of your argument about theoretically building a team but as I've mentioned a few times - if players turn out to look PL material this season and Boro don't get promoted then chances are some team in the PL (e.g. one of the newly promoted ones) may well bid for them next summer and take them away.

Likewise, if they don't turn out to be of potential PL quality then Boro (the head coach) may judge that they need replacing by a better player. Not sure how you actually 'build' a side these days in the Championship as the good players see as a stepping stone to either kick-start their careers or revive them. We've seen at close hand how the valuation of a player goes through the roof with one good season - then it's a completely different ballgame financially in which only those in the PL or with parachute payments can play.

So I can see the merits of perhaps adding a couple of loan deal from the PL to improve the quality of the team but not half the team. Still signings on our budget are ultimately all gambles in the end and hopefully some turn out to be gems rather than another hyped Payero - thankfully we missed out to Fulham with Muniz in the same year otherwise that would have been a huge wedge wasted on keeping the stable door open!

Social media is in its usual meltdown over the loan of JC to Plymouth. I’m sure that people think that our coach makes decisions just to wind them up, rather than based on what he sees in training and what he needs on match day. 

@werdermouth 

Why do people choose not to accept that Carrick and the management team are simply pursuing a path that they believe will turn Coburn into the best player that he can be. If we accept your thesis that Coburn is not a style of player well suited to MC's system then he would not have played and we would have a wasted asset. Thus a loan is the logical solution to build him up to the highest possible value. If, however, the thought is that he still isn't quite ready, then he still wouldn't have played and so a loan is the obvious solution to help him improve. One point where I do agree with you is to ask why Plymouth, another championship side. Maybe he just sees them as playing a similar style to us but more likely to give Coburn a run of games.

Your comment regarding a return in January is also possibly valid. However, we have shown that it is possible to get a great loan in January and, rather than then be caught out by having to replace a player in the way that it has happened with Archer and others, this time we will have other players who are permanent members of staff who are being improved and ready to go in season 2024/25.

I must also add that I don't understand the negativity aimed at the recruitment team. When you look at recent acquisitions such as McGree, Engel, Latte Lath, Silvera, Van Den Berg, Thomas, Forss, Lenihan, Dieng and Gilbert, I see a really positive picture. We also have plenty of players in the U-21s who could turn into something special. Somewhere in there are a couple of gems who will be in the side soon. I caught NKrumah in some highlights and he looks like a real handful as a striker and we know that we have others. Where is this year's Hackney?

For me, the interesting question for right now is whether we will continue down the 'loan' road at all. Carrick seems to be saying that he prefers the idea of improving our own players rather than improving someone else's. I suppose that a loan signing or two to fill a perceived weakness may still make sense but I wonder if the last few pieces of this season's puzzle will turn out to be permanent signings.

UTB

I am happy with the recruitment team efforts and I believe there is a good relationship with Carrick and his management team in conjunction with the recruitment team. The criticism of Scott is unjustified, yes he has been at the club for two years but we all were in agreement the “old” recruitment structure was were our main problems lay. In the time he has been here Scott has changed the whole system, probably many have left and new people brought in who can work with the new strategy, that takes time season by season, we are now recruiting younger, hungrier players on a wage structure which is sustainable. I look at the ages of some (not all) of our first team squad:

Van den Berg (20)

Fry (26)

Engel (25)

Barlaser (26)

Hackney (21)

McGree (25)

Jones (24)

Payero (25)

Rogers (21)

Gilbert (22)

Silvera (23)

Coburn (20)

Forss (24)

Lath (24)

This squad could develop together over the next couple of seasons under a good progressive manager like Carrick, without the need to bring in expensive players looking for their last 2/3/4 year contract. The biggest problem I see is whether the fans will be patient enough to watch the development, since I left the army and moved from Belfast in 2001 (when I first got my season ticket) I have seen some dire football at the Riverside but this last half season under Carrick has been some of the most exciting football in the last 22 years. From what I have seen of the new crop of players, I believe we are entering a new era for MFC of better, sustainable recruitment which will benefit MFC in the future. We may not get promotion this season I can except that as long as I witness development of the team and playing style, hopefully we are at the start of a long journey with Carrick/Scott/Gibson that gets us into the Premiership with a squad that doesn’t need major surgery to survive there.

Com on BORO.

Great thought provoking post there deleriad, followed by a good response from Len.

I do not know what to think about Scott and his team, other than to say, for me, the jury is still out.

I certainly can understand the new philosophy that we look as though we are following. In theory, having a D of F, or such like, does protect the club in the event of losing your Coach. Of course as long as that person stays or we can find a like minded replacement.

This season is certainly a bigger test for MC.

Although we have lost arguably, the best players, we look to have possibly brought in some useful players. If we can add two more experienced fee signings (as it sounds as though reasonable money may be available) and say one good loanee, then I think may be, just may be, MC should be able to give it a good go. 

If we can keep in touch with the top six, then January would give us another opportunity to add a couple of loanees to beef up the squad.

So can MC wave his magic wand once more. Has he learned enough during his tenure to also have learned a Plan B?

One issue I still have, is what JW brings to the table. As an international defender, involved on a day to day basis with a team that leaks goals, why have we not improved in that area, one iota. Of course he may be suggesting tweaks and changes to MC. Then MC may, may be saying, no, it is Plan A that will succeed. This Coach is not for turning.

@selwynoz 

I must admit that I've only seen Coburn play a handful of times and not for over a year but can't recall how much pace he had but he looked quite strong and direct. I guess he's not seen as a potential starter this season by Carrick and indeed it may well be that he's expecting 2 forwards to arrive in the window to add to the other arrivals.

Hard to judge how successful Rogers, Latte Lath, Silvera, Engels and van den Berg will be this season as I've only seen them play once - hopefully most will be decent replacements - some may ultimately not make an impact - but that is what you get on our budget.

I must admit that last summer, when we loaned on in Muniz and loaned out Coburn I really thought that was strange. Muniz had slightly less experience than Coburn and Coburn had the better record. But because Muniz was Brazilian and we had tried to buy him for £7m the previous year, it felt like we had been blinded by some strange desire to splash out on an exotic striker rather than develop our own.

The problem was clearly Wilder but it was still baffling. 

Still odd this year. He is clearly a very different type of striker to Latte Lath but if we loan him to Plymouth and then loan on in another striker who is no better than Coburn you have to think that Carrick simply doesn't want him. Probably doesn't help that he missed most of pre-season but, a bit like Forss, you get the impression that Carrick would rather play with 10 men than put either of them up front. Don't really understand it. I do get that if Coburn plays 30+ games for Plymouth that he will progress further than cameos from the bench for us. There's also no guarantee that Latte Lath will successfully adapt to the Championship. I guess time will tell.

On the Woodgate front, defensive coaching seems to be his weakness. Odd given his playing career. I don't know if anyone remembers but Woodgate took the team for the league cup matches in Pulis's second season. He had some exciting wins but it was clear that we could score but couldn't keep the ball out of the net. This seems to have carried on under Carrick. 

Regarding Keiran Scott - I think he was only 36 when Boro appointed him as DoF - so still quite young and inexperienced with just a couple of years as head scout at Norwich and previously another couple of years as a scout.

I suppose if you sign a dozen players each season you'd expect by the laws of probability a couple to be excellent signings and a couple to be duds - plus if you sign predominantly young prospects then it's easier to avoid being judged in the short term.

He will get judged on his signings and how they turn out but if your signings don't get picked by the manager then it's not your fault. What Boro have to try and avoid is signing loads of players only to keep changing the head coach for a different type with different playing styles.

How many players (other than Jonny Howson) would have fitted the profile of Warnock, Wilder and Carrick - we ditched all our wide players for Wilder who preferred wing-backs and then had to find different players for Carrick's style.

It will be up to the DoF to ensure continuity of head coach in the coming years if players signed on four-year deals are to be fit for purpose. It's easy to say the job starts now when you've been employed for two years - can't imagine a head coach being able to say that as they'd probably have already been shown the exit!

I am not certain we are looking to get another frontman in and suspect that the signing of Latte Lath was the trigger for Coburn being released on loan. 

MC has mentioned that he now has a number of players who can all play across the front three and it may well be he now has his preferred options in place; it remains to be seen what transpires in the next week. 😎

@k-p-in-spain 

Northern Echo are reporting that the Coburn loan deal will only get sanctioned once another forward has been signed so looks like more firepower still needed - they also say Boro are after a number ten and a midfielder.

Also states that the Coburn deal will be a season-long loan so we'll have to wait until next year to see him in a Boro shirt again.

@exmil 

Great post ex-mil and I wouldn't disagree with any of it. I agree that we have to be patient and hope that some of this season's signings come good.  And I share your hope that Carrick and Scott can work happily together and that all will be sweetness and light.

My main point was that if this turns out not to be the case and the following few months follows a similar pattern to the last two years then it should not be an automatic assumption that the coach should be the one who carries the can.

Unfortunately given the hierarchical structure within which the DoF and coach are operating that will almost certainly turn out to be the case, and that we will be in danger of losing the person whom I believe to be the club's greatest staff asset.

And that would be a great pity and something of an injustice.

When people suggest that Player X "...isn't being picked for a reason..." it may be another way of telling us that, unlike the coaching staff, we fans don't get to see how Player X is performing day after day in training, then I don't buy it.  It's basically saying that although we watch the matches, unless we are present at the training ground, we are not qualified to have a view.

1. I remember being told that Adama Traore couldn't be trained or improved as a footballer because all he had to offer was speed (something that, to be fair, can't be taught but is worth its weight in gold), that he couldn't learn anything (though I think he is fluent in more languages than most of us) and that he didn't understand football (he didn't instinctively know where to go on the field, which option to take when presented with an opportunity in play etc). Yet when he left Boro after two years he'd just scored 5 goals and had 10 assists in his 2nd season and he left for Wolves for £18M (so a big profit for Boro) and he was still only 22 years old. He went on to play 200 times for Wolves at a rather higher level than Boro and 17 times for Barcelona when on loan back there from Wolves and managed 8 international apppearances for Spain in 2020 and 2021 so, again, at a rather higher level than Boro.  He has now moved to Fulham, again in the Premier League. So, in shsort, it would appear others have managed to get something from Traore that Boro's staff was not able to identify on the training facilities at Hurworth. So maybe the Boro coaching staff had failed to see what the crowd could see in Traore, and what Wolves, Barcelona and Spain could see - or alternatively what I was told was rubbish.

2. I was told several times, when supporters had started to doubt that Afonso Alves was worth even a fraction of the money spent on him, that Alves had been "banging them in from all angles in training" and that everyone was certain he'd come good. Despite the Manchester City game, Alves didn't come good.  It MIGHT have been the case that Alves, freed from pressure from thousands of expectant fans, WAS really banging in the goals in training.  But he clearly struggled to do that in real, live, games (which is, to be fair, where he was expected to perform). It seems more realistic to say that I was being fed a line. I can't say for certain (memory, memory) but I have an idea I was told similar "banging them in from all angles" tales about one Dong Gook Lee as well.

So if we aren't being told the truth about players being allegedly magnificent in  training, maybe the reverse also applies?

@werdermouth.  The NE usually has its finger on the pulse so I suspect what they are saying is correct.

The situation is, however, no different from when MC said a while ago that a loan was under consideration but a number of things would need to fall into place for it to happen, so it is rather strange that it has been made public now before bringing another player in.  

The mention of a midfielder and a number 10 has been muted for a while but speculated targets have so far gone elsewhere; I hope this window does not end like it did when CW was in charge and we missed out on players and CW was unhappy and appeared to fall out with the recruitment team. 😎

@forever-dormo.  I have watched some of the training videos on the MFC website and Morgan Rogers was banging them in, in fact I don’t think I saw him miss one; strange, how, come Saturday, he can’t put the ball into the net!😎

@forever-dormo 

In truth I think Coburn has hardly had a pre-season because of injury so I suspect the decision to loan him again this season was made long ago.

@forever-dormo An interesting viewpoint and I don’t have any evidence to disagree, but I wonder what else is the reason that JC is being sent out on loan. As fans, if we can’t believe that he’s banging them in during training, nor that he isn’t banging them in, I guess we can only trust the coach who ultimately has to make the decision. 
Strikers come in lots of different styles, of course, so I suppose MC might have a particular variety in mind for his current team and maybe JC just doesn’t fit that mould.

@martin-bellamy 

I was looking at Coburn's profile and attributes and it doesn't appear he's rated for having anything other than average pace but his main attributes were his strength, aerial ability and good shot strength. So he's probably only going to be the next Erling Haarland rather than the next Thiery Henri 😉 

Though seriously, the latest trend (and indeed highly sought after) is for big centre forwards so it may well be the team needs to be built around a Josh Coburn type player rather than him not fitting the current profile of agile flexible forwards.

I must say I shall be very disappointed if Coburn goes out on loan again. With all the caveats you’ve all identified, I still think he is worth a look for us. At the very least, he offers us something different. He’s tall and strong and apparently good in the air. If you’re looking to change a game in the last half an hour, then Josh might be that man. He might actually achieve the extremely rare feat for a Boro player of scoring from a corner or a set-piece (when was the last?), he might win a header or two in the box, creating knock-downs for others. Given his strength, he might just put defenders under pressure. I accept the argument that his style may not fit with MC’s preferred methodology - Boro might need occasionally to go long or more direct to him - but many of you have said previously that MC appears to lack a plan B. I think Josh could be that plan B. 

I shall be even more disappointed if Coburn is allowed to leave before we get in another striker. 

@clive-hurren.   “I shall be even more disappointed if Coburn is allowed to leave before we get in another striker.”

Highly unlikely given the NE report and what MC has said previously.

I am not concerned about another season on loan for JC as I see it as further development and provided he gets the right amount of game time then it can only benefit him and us; if he stays then he is not our main striker and the odd 10/20 mins from the bench is not really going to benefit his development.

A certain Ben Gibson went to Plymouth and it didn’t do him any harm. 😎

For me Josh Coburn is the proverbial enigma wrapped in a mystery.

At his age he is either good enough or he isn't and I suspect that when returns, (next summer), he'll be wanting a transfer for more game time. I agree with what everyone says, some good points well made, but no really measured explanations from the club, apart from the usual platitudes that is. the strangest being the implication that he will not leave on loan unless Boro have a replacement. So if we don't find a replacement is he staying?

If he does end up at Plymouth I hope he doesn't play against us because we all know what would/will happen.

All the best to everyone.

UTB,

John

PS Anyone heard from Ken?

@john-richardson If Coburn is loaned to Plymouth he cannot play against us in any match.

Come on BORO.

May I thank everyone who has responded so generously to the West Brom opener.  I have greatly appreciated everyone's comments.

My special thanks to Andy for facilitating publication after my original effort was lost somewhere on the web, to Bob for his help and to Werder for his technical adjustments.

I can now get back to my ink and quill.

@john-richardson 

I'd agree that after a season playing Championship football at Plymouth (providing he gets selected of course) then Josh Coburn is unlikely to be happy as a bit-part player at Boro.

He recently signed a contract extension to take him to the end of the 2026-27 season so it less critical than if his existing contract (due to end in 2025) was running down.

However, if he banged in 20 goals for Plymouth this season then Boro would probably be in the position of fending off bids next summer as we found with Akpom - with the advantage of not needing to either persuade the player to extend his contract or sell.

Conversely, if he didn't score many goals at Plymouth then he's unlikely to be returning to Boro with the prospect of being a starter.

In either scenario, I believe the chances of seeing Coburn in a Boro shirt again have been decreased by another season loan unless he just has an average season that shows further promise - still, loaning a player out to a team in the same league feels an unusual move for a player you want to keep.

Tony Mowbray has been playing a 17 year old as a centre forward at the moment.

If Coburn at 20 can't get in the Boro team ie as a sub etc then I fear he probably will not have a career at Boro. Strange move.

Mrs OFB and I went down to the Boro on Friday to choose our new seats in the West Stand. After having a close look we made our choice and went to pay. 

“system down”

“can you call back?”

”In an hour?”

”No problem” I replied “here’s my mobile number give me a ring when it’s all up and running again.”

So we went shopping, an hour passed, then two. I rang the club, no reply.

To be honest I didn’t need any shopping so we decided to go back to the club.

Pulled up outside the doors only to find it was all locked up. Everyone had gone home presumably because the systems were still down.

The ticket office is closed until Tuesday, hopefully I’ll get my seats then !

OFB

One of the things that has been missing from the Josh Coburn discussion is the fact that after an encouraging start at Bristol Rovers he suffered a three month goal drought from the beginning of this year and ended the season disappointingly.

The stats boys at the Boro will have pointed out that if our promising young striker ultimately had some difficulty in finding the net in Division One, then he was unlikely to be the heaven-sent answer to our striker problems in the Championship.

There is an obvious logic to that, which I can understand, even as a supporter of the young man.

But it raises the question of what Plymouth, who have started well and could turn out to be a surprise package in the Championship this season, see in Josh that the Boro apparently don't.

The answer may lie in the game between Bristol Rovers and Plymouth in October last year when Josh was creating quite an impression in the West Country.

Plymouth had taken a 2-0 lead by half -time and seemed to be well on course for a comfortable away win.

Josh came on as sub for the second half and within a minute had equalised and changed the whole course of the game not only by his goal but by his physical presence, according to the match reports

Rovers went on to equalise and Plymouth were ultimately happy to hang on for the 2-2 draw.

All clubs have a tendency to rate players who have performed well against them even after they appear to lose a bit of form and this may be what has happened here.

The other thing that should be said is that, in spite of his later problems, Rovers supporters thought highly enough of Josh to vote him their Young Player of the Season.

It may be that the Boro number crunchers have prevailed and that Carrick has little countervailing evidence given Josh's curtailed pre-season through injury.

What cannot be computed however is the galvanising effect that the young locally produced striker can have on the Riverside supporters whenever he appears.

Personally I hold to the view that not everything that can be counted necessarily counts. And that generally the things in life that really count cannot be counted.

I would like to have seen him given his chance here this season.

@lenmasterman 

That's interesting Len about Coburn's goals drying up for Bristol Rovers in the second half of the season - I had a look at Rovers results and when Coburn scored 10 in his opening 15 games his club won 8 of those games, drew 4 and lost just 3.

However, during his goal drought Rovers only won 4 of their last 20 games so it may well have been the team were struggling as a whole - indeed they only managed 15 goals in those last 20 games and with 6 coming in just two games then the other 18 saw them score just 9.

So Coburn has managed just one goal in his last 20 games with it coming after 18 games without netting. On that basis it could be hard for Carrick to rely on Josh to score the goals this season - though having said that Morgan Rogers, who is only 6 months older, has only managed 3 goals in the last 18 months during his loan spells at Bournemouth and Blackpool - though he hardly got a kick at Bournemouth.