@werdermouth to quote C&C Music Factory "things that make you go hmmm".
@werdermouth. Still retained your 100% record then Werder. 😉😎
Can’t seem to shake it off - maybe next time 🤔
Love him or hate him , get Dyshe now. Can only improve this shower of a team
philip of Huddersfield 👎👎☹️☹️
If MC has to go, I’d rather have almost anyone other than Dyche. There must be someone else out there.
Weirdly, if we win our game in hand, we’re still not far off the play offs. We won’t win it, of course, but I’m trying to find a positive.
Can the club really afford to change the management team? Carrick has a contract until 2027. Would a change really make that much difference at this point of the season, especially with the limited defensive personnel we currently have? We are stuck with what we have got until May I feel. Is it a bit more complex than simply blaming the manager? Too many signings in the window means that he is struggling up front for coherence with too many loan signings and players not in form or working their way back to full fitness. I accept that defensive frailties have not been addressed by both Scott as well as the well documented limited tactical acumen of the coaching team, outlined by many on the Diasboro forum over the course of the season. So as ever a number of factors at work here.
@eboroacum. I agree that too many signings in the window is a contributory factor but you can’t divorce MC from that issue.
Mark Drury on Radio Tees made the point strongly that these players are not being imposed on MC, if he doesn’t want them then they are not brought into the club; he therefore bears some of the culpability.
I have also posted that now is probably not the time to dispense with his services but clearly come the end of season there will need decisions to be made if, as expected, we are outside the top six again. 😎
'Pedestrian toothless and inept'. Insipid, clueless, headless chickens'. Crikey Diasboreans I didn't know we'd improved over the Sheffield game...
No leader on the pitch and, it would seem no leader in the dugout. How many points do we need to avoid relegation then? This is depressing, really depressing.
UTB,
John
A time for reflection.
The facts - Carrick has had adequate time to improve the team to be challenging for automatic promotion. He has been supported by the owner in signing new players. The team are no better than a couple of years ago. Points gained over the last 2 months are more relegation form than top 6 form - 2 wins in the last 13 games and 4 consecutive defeats. Everyone can see that , as a team, Boro can’t defend as evidenced by goals conceded. No emergence of home grown players making progress by playing in the first team.
On the plus side I’m struggling to say what’s better - perhaps Boro are a club which can sign the occasional player and sell for a profit.
The way forward - Do nothing to the end of the season and see what happens - scrape into the top 6, finish mid table, continue in the current poor results and end up in the bottom half of the table. If the view is other than a top 6 should Carrick be allowed to stay? Otherwise it’s A.N.O.now.
Or, make a change now to give A.N.O. time to settle in and hopefully improve performances to be up and running at the start of next season.
It’s a huge dilemma for the owner who we know will always do what’s best for Boro.
Philip of Huddersfield 👎👎☹️☹️☹️
Theres really only one question Gibson has to ponder , have we progressed since the play off loss to Coventry , as he been given the help to improve things,
Scott can't live off the one signing Lathe that worked out for the club, there are big questions over too many others.
Looking back Carrick didn't really use Rogers a lot , Ailing come on, he got lucky when he first came in ,he didn't have to pick a team week after week they were doing it already for the club ,same team.
People calling for Cooper give me a break,
On closing are Scott and Carrick on the same page
No point ditching Carrick now and whoever came in would inherit all the same problems with an unbalanced squad where half of them will be gone in the summer.
Carrick has been compliant to the club's model and given up his star striker, lost his best keeper for the season, been without his captain for a few months, then lost his most potent player in Doak to injury and seen his play-maker's form fall off a cliff and only just got his key defensive midfielder back. On top of that he's now got half a new team to gel into a group that is out of form and low on confidence.
Even all those great Man City players struggled when they couldn't get results and lost confidence so it's no different with lesser players. Basically the club have taken their eye off the ball in the pursuit of playing moneyball in order to keep them competitive financially.
Carrick has proven he can develop players to valuable assets and play some exciting football but it comes with flaws and there's no hiding that the team have struggled defensively once there is no out-ball for the defence.
Can't see how all this can be solved with a short-term fix of bringing in a proven manager with old school ideas - we've been down that road recently and it didn't get us any further and was a hard watch to boot.
Time for a deep breath and accept another season has been scuppered by losing players - some intentionally and yet again injuries. The January window has been a mess and this is what the result is - it's an incoherent team looking for players to step up and show their form and character - the same as Pep has been waiting for or those who have taken on Man Utd and Spurs jobs!
I went out to Sainsbury's after about 25 minutes, not long after Andy Sixsmith, I think it was, on Final Score had described the game as "flat as a pancake". I couldn't stand the tension. When I returned after full time, I was glad I'd made the effort to go! 🙁
For how much longer are clueless MC & Woody going to be allowed to stay in post?
I’m in the camp of those who think we should stick with MC for at least the rest of the season.
For me, @werdermouth speaks a lot of sense (as always). Old school managers have let us down too often in the past and I’ll vote to stick, not twist.
Best summary yet of the hundreds i have seen so far.
If Gibson decides to keep Carrick then he is saying that he can turn things round and then go on to achieve better things.
I remain to be convinced.
ok, the problem is always the same when a manager goes and that is , who do you get? There’s always a few of the older brigade who’s qualities , good and bad , are well known and then there’s a few who have shown some promise but are a bit of a gamble.
No easy answer - pros and cons with all decisions.
Philip of Huddersfield
☹️☹️☹️
Hate him IF Dyche caME to Boro I WOULD stop going I feel so strongly against him
OFB
Bob, what have I missed with Dyche who seems to be intensely disliked by Boro supporters ?
Philip of Huddersfield
I don’t think we have any other option than to stay with Carrick until the season end at least.
After that and the dust settles, then that is the time for home truths. If Mr Gibson, after deep and honest open talks with Carrick, does not believe he can deliver a comfortable top six place with further investment, then a parting of the ways must happen.
That will be the best time to bring in a new person.
Sadly that investment may be limited by, one paying off Carrick and his team. Two, the squandered money spent in this recent transfer window. Or cash in on the limited saleable assets, whilst trying also dispose of those players still under contract but not good enough to try again.
We will be starting from square one again, whoever is in charge.
My view is that Carrick’s time is nearly up, unless Sir Steve can somehow find another Venables ‘father figure’ to help him negotiate the rest of the season, or unless Boro somehow get unexpected points at Bristol City and/or Stoke. The booing that greeted Boro at half-time today was repeated more vociferously and to a more sustained degree at full-time. The EG reports that the Boro bench was the target of some of it, which I didn’t see, but I did hear several players, bravely going round to applaud the fans, getting serious booing and catcalls. This definitely appeared aimed at individuals - Edmondson, for instance - as well as at the team as a whole. Fans had already greeted Ayling’s replacement by Dijksteel with huge cheers. The message was very clear and the atmosphere decidedly toxic. Contributors to Radio Tees after the game were unanimous in condemning our performance with a majority calling for the manager to go.
I think it will be very difficult for MC to turn this round and rebuild the players’ confidence, and even harder for Steve Gibson to ignore it, especially as early bird season cards are now on sale.
No point ditching Carrick now and whoever came in would inherit all the same problems with an unbalanced squad where half of them will be gone in the summer.
Carrick has been compliant to the club's model and given up his star striker, lost his best keeper for the season, been without his captain for a few months, then lost his most potent player in Doak to injury and seen his play-maker's form fall off a cliff and only just got his key defensive midfielder back. On top of that he's now got half a new team to gel into a group that is out of form and low on confidence.
Even all those great Man City players struggled when they couldn't get results and lost confidence so it's no different with lesser players. Basically the club have taken their eye off the ball in the pursuit of playing moneyball in order to keep them competitive financially.
Carrick has proven he can develop players to valuable assets and play some exciting football but it comes with flaws and there's no hiding that the team have struggled defensively once there is no out-ball for the defence.
Can't see how all this can be solved with a short-term fix of bringing in a proven manager with old school ideas - we've been down that road recently and it didn't get us any further and was a hard watch to boot.
Time for a deep breath and accept another season has been scuppered by losing players - some intentionally and yet again injuries. The January window has been a mess and this is what the result is - it's an incoherent team looking for players to step up and show their form and character - the same as Pep has been waiting for or those who have taken on Man Utd and Spurs jobs!
I couldn't agree more although I am less concerned about the 'moneyball' direction. We have made a lot of money by selling Spence, Tavernier, Akpom, Rogers, Jones and Lathe Lath and this must give some much-needed relief to Steve Gibson. Nothing will be achieved by changing manager now. If players such as Doak, McGree, Lenihan, Fry, Bangura and others come back and something clicks, we can give the play-offs a shot. If not, then we start to plan for the future.
I do also think that there is a bigger question to be asked here. I would like to ask you all "what kind of team and club do we want to support". Amongst a fair bit of dross, we have seen Boro playing some excellent attacking football. Where is the team that slaughtered Oxford, Luton etc. The team that scored plenty of goals. It is there, somewhere. I don't want to waste my team supporting a team playing pragmatic, 'don't lose' football. We have some excellent attacking players and the defence is capable of playing well enough.
We are also supposed to have a number of up and coming stars who have made various international age sides. Some of them have produced strong cameos in the first team and maybe it's time to risk a few more.
On top of this, Carrick seems to be a decent man and he has shown that he can develop players. I'm still curious to see where we will be in a year's time.
UTB
I would guess the club would not let MC go now and will see the season out with him. If we don't make top six that will be the end of the current management team's tenure I suspect.
Player trading is necessary for the club given our finances but the sale of players in recent years really doesn't explain the failure to produce a team which can defend to the required standard for consistent results to be obtained.
Time will tell but if we do change coaches in the summer, it would be better to change at the start of the summer to allow the new boss to handle the necessary rebuild.
Time will tell.
UTB
An excellent and balanced analysis from Werdermouth and SelywnOz.
The thought of another Pulis or Warnock or Wilder as head coach is atrocious. Ditto Woodgate and Strachan. Karanka arguably too.
Retaining Carrick until May has to be a no brainer, and hopefully beyond. As Selywn says, he is a decent man and I'm not sure we can say that of many of the above named. Clearly decency only goes so far but it does add a pride and belief among players and supporters when there is a sound man at the helm. Higher up, Steve Gibson has made some huge mistakes but goodness me, how lucky are we that he has been the club's benefactor and saviour over the years.
That said, this season has become a pig's ear and I'm unsure I can recall a poorer transfer window. Travers was needed but every other signing looks a panic buy. Iheanacho for example does not seem to fit the team profile at all, a (very) low scoring forward without the buzz or industry of ELL. We did not need to sign him and he will not have come cheaply.
The Giles loan is worse still and exposes us a club unable to think coherently. We are top heavy with attacking players and already have three left backs plus the untried George McCormick. Surely we do not need an attacking full back with average defensive qualities? We need to fix this one asap and thin out the left backs, any opposition will zone in on this as an area where we do not know what we are doing.
Whether Carrick or Scott bears ultimate responsibility for the January window is unclear but both need a stern look at themselves.
Carrick too needs to publicly address the players' time off post Sunderland defeat. It sounds an astonishing lapse and the Gazette and local media have a responsibility to clarify something that does not sound like the wholesale commitment to the club that Gibson and the fans would expect. Such fuzziness saw the end of Wilder and this will pop up again if not addressed in full now.
Some, though far from all, of the attacking football under Carrick has been sumptuous. It comes though from a settled team (this time two years when Archer, Ramsey, McGree and Hackney were on fire for example) and a unity and one-for-all spirit and we need this again. Getting everyone on board and fighting together is key to any successful side and it is not apparent right now.
Promotion this season has gone and we won't go down. So dump the loanees and out of contract players and foster spirit and hope for next season. We have way too many players for just another dozen matches.
Bringing in someone credible to help Carrick would surely help. When Terry Venables arrived, he worked with what he had and reorganised superbly, the defence in particular. It's a huge ask but it is this clarity and simplicity of thinking (good man management) that we need. Carrick seems to have lost his way but it is not terminal and we should not try to make it so yet.
I'm not against the moneyball approach, indeed it's probably necessary given Boro are competing against clubs with parachute payments for essentially 3 promotion slots. However, there are a couple of things I think could be done better.
The sale of Latte Lath was blocked on the last day of the August window because it left Boro with no time to find an adequate replacement - However, we ended up in the same situation in January and were forced into a late loan for Iheanacho, who is not fit to go.
The club should have done like we have with our season loan deals and told his agent that they had until 10 days before the window ended to make a deal otherwise they'd have to wait until summer - what use is the money in the bank that will be spent in the summer now (hopefully). The complication that was the MLS deal was that their transfer window didn't open until 29 January and that was known from the off so why didn't the club get in a loan deal earlier?
My other issue is that the club shouldn't focus exclusively on looking to get a return on potential - this squad desperately needs a few hardened pros (leaders) on the pitch, particularly in defence and midfield - so it's all about the balance and to disregard that aspect is counterproductive to building a successful side. Unfortunately, Boro only have a couple of old pros and they are showing that they are too old and struggling with the pace and staying fit.
So by all means buy and sell players but get the timing right and look beyond the model to have a more balanced side.
Interesting observations about the crowd reaction at the Riverside yesterday - I missed most of the game so didn't see it. It is obviously another factor in whether Carrick remains at the club and if the crowd turn it could be difficult - remember how Mogga lost the crowd at that infamous Barnsley game after going 3-0 down to the then bottom club in the first half and was dismissed shortly after he's endured a bad run.
Carrick and Boro definitely need some wins in the coming weeks to avoid him losing the crowd.
@selwynoz excellent posts by you and @werder. I fully sgree.
We do have a good squad - the defending is not the problem, but creating something is. We must keep the ball better and create something. We have done that with worse players, so I still trust Carrick will do it again. Ok, we lost Latte Lath, but we still have good players to attack.
Terrible time to be a Boro fan now. Later today I will play futsal with a group, that I took to Teesside to see Boro nearly 10 yeras ago. So I will get a lot of stick for the recent results. But still I am proud of having Carrick and Gibson at helm, rather than Dyche and a Chinese mogul.
So let's look forward to the next match. No preview by Werder - so we can get a result!
Up the Boro!
Bob, what have I missed with Dyche who seems to be intensely disliked by Boro supporters ?
Philip of Huddersfield
There is some lore that he dislikes us because he was in the Chesterfield team that we beat in the cup semis
I want MC to succeed but his first season seems to have been his high watermark and we trailed off badly at the end of that season. The last two season have had the same issues which haven't or can't be addressed.
If he leaves I have no idea who we replace him with, but yesterday was a truly terrible performance and I don't know where we go from here. I may be been melodramatic but at the current rate we will finish very close to the relegation spots, we couldn't go down could we?, if we continue on our current path will we get another 10 points that would probably ensure safety.
What a time to be asking fans to cough up hundreds of pounds to renew season tickets, the guy who sits next to me goes to all the away matches as well he either deserves a medal or needs sectioning.
Interesting observations about the crowd reaction at the Riverside yesterday - I missed most of the game so didn't see it. It is obviously another factor in whether Carrick remains at the club and if the crowd turn it could be difficult - remember how Mogga lost the crowd at that infamous Barnsley game after going 3-0 down to the then bottom club in the first half and was dismissed shortly after he's endured a bad run.
Carrick and Boro definitely need some wins in the coming weeks to avoid him losing the crowd.
Personally I think he has lost the crowd, we tend not to demonstrate we just stop going. Friday night could be Carricks Barnsley moment.
RLE said "Iheanacho for example does not seem to fit the team profile at all" I don't think he's fit not sure why we signed him, was it a panic move.
Just seen highlights of match, Carricks dig at the pride and passion banner was telling
Some really good posts in reply to welder’s excellent take on our issues at hand.
Clive, when the final whistle went, Carrick shook Cleverly’s hand and then walked straight down the tunnel, with a face like thunder.
Selwynoz, I think the majority want to support a team playing attractive and not dour football. Easy on the eye. However we all know that at times you have to be pragmatic and it is horses for courses. I am yet to be convinced that Carrick can provide the second part.
As Rich said, Mr Gibson has been our saviour and given the club stability for nearly forty years. However he has made some big mistakes, especially when you compare MFC to the likes of Bournemouth, Burnley, Brentford and say Brighton. May be his recent mistake was foisting Woodgate onto Carrick and not a more experienced number two of Carrick’s personal choice. After all, Carrick joined MFC with very little personal First Team Coach knowledge.
I also believe that Mr Gibson had very little choice other than to sell LL in this last window. LL wanted to secure his future, there was no interest that we know off from any EPL clubs, probably because of the fee we were holding out for and got from Atlanta. A really good sell economically, given he is still pumping millions into the club each season.
Chris, Player trading is necessary for the club given our finances but the sale of players in recent years really doesn't explain the failure to produce a team which can defend to the required standard for consistent results to be obtained.
I agree entirely. Why have we failed miserably to solve the LB issue, exasperated by multiple purchases and loans over Carrick’s tenure. Where has the decision making emanated from in choosing the incoming player(s). Also the defensive issue has been apparent for all to see. Why has that not been at least improved to some degree, instead of the hollow words from Carrick, about team responsibility.
Rich, a very good post, along with Selwynoz and Werders thought provoking one.
I posted previously that I just could not see Carrick having another assistant footed on him. “A Venables”. I really do wonder if deep down he thinks, what if I had started with an assistant of my choice. Remember when the internet talked about MFC bringing in one of the old Man U coaches, when negotiations were on going. But instead we got Woodgate.
Of course, for all of Scotts success in bringing in Rodgers and Latte Lath, there have also been a fair number of questionable purchases and loans. The worst it appears to be in this last window.
There have been some good acquisitions, Morris looks to be one, but some have been failures to be honest, and the money ones still having to prove the worth of their fees.
MFC and Mr Gibson is in a right pickle. He has invested a fair amount for a club like the Boro, however his return on it is looking rather disappointing. What will he do next?
One last thing and then I will try and shut up
It's 35 years since watford last did the double over us
I'm not against the moneyball approach, indeed it's probably necessary given Boro are competing against clubs with parachute payments for essentially 3 promotion slots. However, there are a couple of things I think could be done better.
The sale of Latte Lath was blocked on the last day of the August window because it left Boro with no time to find an adequate replacement - However, we ended up in the same situation in January and were forced into a late loan for Iheanacho, who is not fit to go.
The club should have done like we have with our season loan deals and told his agent that they had until 10 days before the window ended to make a deal otherwise they'd have to wait until summer - what use is the money in the bank that will be spent in the summer now (hopefully). The complication that was the MLS deal was that their transfer window didn't open until 29 January and that was known from the off so why didn't the club get in a loan deal earlier?
My other issue is that the club shouldn't focus exclusively on looking to get a return on potential - this squad desperately needs a few hardened pros (leaders) on the pitch, particularly in defence and midfield - so it's all about the balance and to disregard that aspect is counterproductive to building a successful side. Unfortunately, Boro only have a couple of old pros and they are showing that they are too old and struggling with the pace and staying fit.
So by all means buy and sell players but get the timing right and look beyond the model to have a more balanced side.
I had written something very similar to this but you’ve hit the nail of the head again, Werder. I’ll no doubt revisit it when my Easter match preview comes around as I imagine it will still be relevant.
The theory/approach is broadly sound I think. The execution has been shocking at times.