Is it safe to come out from behind the couch yet?
Werder that was a great headliner, pity Boro didn't play as well as your piece was written.
WE are toothless whatever team is put fielded, I never thought I would welcome an international break.
Never mid, what are the positives?
The worry of being undefeated has been banished.
We can concentrate on the League.
Our transfer wishes have been fulfilled and the backroom team can congratulate themselves on that.
Anything else?
UTB,
John
Having not seen the game yesterday, I've just watched the 'highlights' and although hard to get a general impression of the game in 4 minutes, Boro had quite a few decent chances to score but the players look nervous in front of goal and often either just hit at the keeper or wide of the goal.
Stoke's young second string looked pacey and comfortable on the ball and cut open Boro almost at will in the second half - though I can't say I thought Engel looked that much to blame individually on the goals - their second was the fault of Clarke who lunged into a challenge and missed - their 3rd was down to failure on the right of defence with Finch trying to cover but the pass was beyond Engel's reach as it reached Koumas - the 4th saw Stoke on a quick counter with a great incisive pass where Manhoef took a touch and cut inside Engel and scored - the 5th saw a ball from the right reach Manhoef again and as Engel faced him up he cut inside with another 4 Boro defenders watching and beat Brynn on his near post that maybe should have been saved.
From what I've seen in the highlights it was a team failure defensively and Stoke probably could easily have scored another 3 with one in the first half a glaring miss.
This is what you get if you throw a team together that is full of youngsters and debutants that has never played together and it looked weak defensively and couldn't cope with being run at with pace - which as you will recall was the failing last season until well into the new year.
It's been a tough start again and I feel a bit sorry for Clarke as he's had to play every game with 3 or even 4 different central defensive partners - with nobody to give him a rest both mentally and physically. Carrick gambled last night with his line-up and ultimately Boro got found out - though whatever he may say in public, it's clear he didn't really care about the Carabao Cup and was only thinking of resting as many players as possible for Saturday.
Though to be fair to Stoke they did the same but appear to have some very useful young players coming through their ranks - unfortunately Boro look set loan or move on several of their youngsters in the coming days but I'd be inclined to keep hold of Gilbert who looks like a very good footballer in the making and may well turn out to be better than others who have been brought in this window.
I didn't post after the match last night because I know profanity is not approved of and that was a chastening experience, what a shambles, the club want to attract a new generation of supporters, well good luck with that after last night. I do wonder sometimes if people at club think that games are won on possession and not goals because we have lots of it and do nothing with it, isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, if true we need sectioning. Once again we can't break the low block but there seems to be no plan B or width or any idea.
Well Josh Coburn might as well pack his bags today after that miss, unfortunately I think he needs time away from the club plus Engal looked like a person who knew his days are numbered.
Still fuming not that we lost but in the abject way we seemed to just give up.
The worrying thing is last nights performance mirrored the 1st team all the same problems and issues.
I don't think the problem is that Boro don't do anything with their possession as last night they had more shots on goal than Stoke and as I mentioned in my preview we've had more shots on goal than any other championship club this season with now 101 attempts on goal in our 5 league and cup games. Clearly the problem is putting the ball in the net and perhaps the quality of the final ball on many occasions could be better.
Patience, lads. We are still playing well generally as Werder proves above. We are creating chances a lot - look the Finch shot from a volley. How the heck the keeper saved that?
@OFB I would never leave a football match before the end. I prefer the Red Faction style and support my team even if we are loosing. I know the result was awful but the game itself was not as bad as most matches under Tony Pulis, for example.
Up the Boro!
@werdermouth. Yes, I too feel really sorry for Clarke. He has been the stand out player for me, over the last 20 or so games.
Whilst Hunt will hopefully develop into a good CB for us, I still believe that Scott and Carrick have ignored the elephant in the room.
The defence overall, was suspect most of last season. Surely we should not have waited too see how Lenahin, Fry and Smith turn out. And when they will be available for first team action. Another game ready CB should have been purchased..
Engel, Bangura and Thomas, did not really nail a place in the side. Let's hope Borges IS the real deal.
Let's hope we keep Hackney and he continues to develop in partnership with Morris and they both keep injury free. Barlaser is not a good enough replacement.
Up front, we are too slow at times, with to many passes. Certainly more width is required. More crosses, less passes.
As for Gilbert, I will be bitterly disappointed if he is allowed to leave. He appears to have good technical ability and vision.
I suppose on reflection we can play all the right players but not in the right order !
To paraphrase Morecambe and Wise !
Well you have to as it was a comedy show last night !
Get out of that !
You can’t can you ?
OFB
@original-fat-bob. Good to see you still have a sense of humour after that abject display.
Never mind the quality or results, look at the possession, comes to mind! 😎
We know that Carrick plays an open, attack-minded game. Unfortunately, when you're not putting your chances away, you get the worst of it. Things might have been very different had Coburn scored from his excellent chance at 0-0.
I see the game last night as as much of an outlier as the 3-0 win in the previous round, and with so many changes for all four teams involved in the two ties, it'd be reluctant to draw too many conclusions from either game in isolation.
I do think that Carrick needs to have a look at his tactics however, as for a good few years now, including in Wilders final months, we've been wide open to the counter-attack and very often punished. it's doesn't impact too much when you have Ramsey, Archer and Akpom in your front four with Boro3 in full flow, but our current attackers are a significant downgrade from there and the open-play goals haven't been coming to override that open defence.
I look at the title favourites in the Premier League (City, Arsenal, Liverpool) and see three very potent and attack-minded sides who, like us, commit bodies forward. Yet they also keenly protect the middle of the pitch in case they lose the ball, and then scramble to win it back within five to ten seconds. if they fail to do so, they drop back and settle in, ready to launch their own counter if the opportunity arises.
All three seem to achieve this by inverting a fullback to go alongside their holding midfield player, providing a central double-screen in front of the back three, with a front five interchanging ahead of them. The only space they leave that can be exploited if they lose the ball is out wide, which of course is further from goal and provides fewer passing options.
We, on the other hand - and again this pre-dates Carrick - seem to leave gaps in the middle of the pitch from which a decent ball-carrier or smart passer has space with options left, right and central. it's not pretty when we lose the ball.
To me, finishing our chances will make the biggest difference going forward. We create more than enough. Now that left-back has also been (hopefully) addressed, I don't think we need defensive improvements via the transfer market either - I think we have enough when fit and are unfortunate to have several centre-backs unavailable at once. A tactical tweak without throwing the baby out with the bath water could go a long way as well though, as we can see from the three best sides in country at the moment.
@pedro It is easy to say now, but perhaps we should have kept Paddy on loan until the USA league is starting. He is now on loan to WBA.
He would have helped us now when we have some minor injuries to our centre-backs. But I think there was aproblem with money and his costly contract. I have no idea if he has plyed for the Baggies.
Up the Boro!
@andy-r. A good post and analysis Andy.
Additionally, as well as the tactical tweaks you mention we need consistency both individually and collectively together with quality and execution. 😎
@andy-r. I really do hope you are correct about the CB situation.
Unfortunately it will be too late to do anything about it if you are wrong.
Last night's game answered alot of questions, it showed why these players can't get a regular start, or in some cases ready for the league team, so it's obvious ,the big thing now is to get these injuries sorted out,it's imperative.
I watched the U21 against Sunderland ,and to be honest ,they are way off ready , I don't understand why the club don't create a B team ,we had them years ago, and to keep players game fit, with a mix of senior and younger ,they could arrange games against both foreign and domestic teams, I think it would be more beneficial.
The Cardiff game could be iffy, I think they just want to get past it ,and get into the break
I feel our best team when together, is a top six team, the thing is getting them back, and I'd also like Carrick to be a more flexible, including his substitute ideas
Wonder if we're looking at a CB on loan till January, Chelsea must have one, they've got forty players
Like some others on here I’m not too bothered about being out of the Carabao Cup although the manner of the exit was shambolic. I suppose a kind of positive from the game is that it showed what the back-up playing resources are capable of which isn’t enough at the moment to justify their inclusion in the first team squad, Gilbert excepted.
The result last night has, however, loaded a lot of pressure on the Cardiff game which has now assumed a high level of importance. I don’t want to call it a must win game but it’s coming close. Win and a league season start of WLDW might be just about acceptable with 7 points out of 12 in the league. Lose and a sequence of WLDL with 4 points out of 12 looks ugly and we will already be playing catch up. A draw is better than a loss but not much.
Last night’s debacle must have cast a bit of a gloom around the club (it certainly did among the fans) and the question is whether that negative atmosphere can be dispersed before Saturday. Carrick said in his post-match piece on the MFC website that Saturday would be completely different but I wonder. Will Boro cast off the gloom and show the away form of last season or will last nights thrashing result in typical Boro turning up in Wales? Mmmmm.
Before we cast away all the players from last night’s defeat, it is worth remembering that there was a great number of young potential players mixed with fringe first team players in the starting lineup, whereas usually you would expect to see 1 or 2 introduced to the side gradually through the later stages of the match (60+ minutes etc). I believe a conscious decision was made to try a makeshift team, if they scraped a win against an also depleted Stoke, then all well and good but if they went out, then so be it. The team selection told me MFC have higher priorities than the Caraboa Cup, if Carrick had played Lath, Hackney, Morris, Jones etc, won 5 - 0 but lost 2/3 of the above injured for a few months, what would the reaction have been on here, even if we got Man City away next round 🤔.
Come on BORO.
PS, if we go to Cardiff with our full side and get a win, the Caraboa Cup will be forgotten about.
Come on BORO.
Whatever the result at Cardiff the Carabao Cup will be forgotten about as it was certainly a forgettable game with nothing meaningful to take from it - maybe the second round should've been held in the international break given both sides weren't fielding any players likely to be away on international duty. In fact we probably would have fielded a stronger side if it had of been. Maybe something for the competition organisers to ponder - these cup games would probably be more useful to clubs in the first international break after the transfer windows has closed as an opportunity to field late new signings and those in need of a game.
Good post and interesting analysis Andy - though I've read some arguments that one of the problems may be that Carrick likes his full-backs to play high, which leaves the team exposed to a quick counter attack that pulls the central defenders wide and thus creates space for the opposition in the middle.
Perhaps the solution is to play with a back three if you want essentially wing-backs in all but name - at least then you have that extra defender to cover the middle - though given we're struggling to find two fit centre-backs then asking for a back three may be a luxury we can't have. Hopefully, we'll have RvdB, Fry and Lenihan available after the international break. Also our new Brazilian left-back appears to be more of a wing-back and likewise I'd put Dijksteel in that category too given his driving runs.
A back three of Ayling, RvdB and Clarke would be my preference with Dijksteel and the new guy as wing-backs - though we'd lose a forward, which is not great given we now have at least 9 chasing 3-4 places.
So on that basis I suspect a back three is not on the agenda but then maybe a rethink on pushing the full-backs high up the pitch is needed if Boro are to avoid getting caught out by teams on the counter.
It's going to be a balance of providing an out ball from defence against getting caught out when doing so - we probably need players better at breaking the lines and comfortable on the ball - Gilbert looks like one of those as is McGree - plus of course Hackney.
Either way, as you say we still need players who can finish and as yet there's nobody in the groove up front - Latte Lath stated last season slowly and was eventually dropped in favour of Coburn - but he looked short on confidence yesterday. Conway looks composed and may be the obvious solution and I do like Burgzorg so far and has been unlucky not to have a few goals. Also let's not forget that Marcus Forss is probably our coolest finisher when he's in front of goal.
So Carrick has plenty of options and needs to work out how to get the best out of this squad - though it's early days we have carelessly dropped points that should have been banked. A win on Saturday would stand us in good stead to kick-start the season after the break - a defeat would make it harder.
The best thing about the Stoke City game was the Starter by @werdermouth.
It might also serve to show that Possession is a false god. Possession is only pivotal if your team makes opportunities that it can then take in the game. Going back to previous posts, the only stats which count are goals scored and goals conceded.
But since some people in the game, maybe many coaches, think (other) stats are important, let's look at Boro's last 2 games:
Home to Stoke -
Boro Stoke
62.2% Possession 33.8%
16 Shots 12
3 On target 5
4 Corners 3
0 GOALS 5
Home to Portsmouth -
Boro P'smouth
70.5% Possession 20.5%
30 Shots 7
7 On target 3
15 Corners 2
2 GOALS 2
(AND STAGGERINGLY Boro 67 touches in the opponents penalty area and Portsmouth with 9. In 90+ minutes!).
The picture against Derby County away was similar. Boro had 70.6% possession yet only 3 shots (2 on target) and despite 37 touches in their opponents' box managed to lose 1-0.
Once may be aberration. If it happens again and again, it is form. A habit bordering on becoming inevitable. Against Stoke, the Potters had FIVE shots on target, and every one was a goal.
Maybe Boro would be best to have LESS possession, if they could only do something with it. Or perhaps when in possession, Boro would be best advised to give the ball away because, as those last 3 games show, Boro is unlikely to turn possession into the thing you need to win matches - goals! Odds for the next game...?
@forever-dormo when you say "Odds for the next game" are you suggesting a novel approach to team selection, only choosing from players with an odd squad number?
PS, if we go to Cardiff with our full side and get a win, the Caraboa Cup will be forgotten about.
Come on BORO.
And if we lose at Cardiff what then? 😎
@werdermouth you are right; McGree and Gilbert have it in them as ball players to create openings. Latte Lath and (when fit ) Forss can finish. Jones albeit erratic at times troubles the opposition and gets behind his marker. Burgzorg looks good for a decent contribution this season. Conway is new but we hope will deliver his share of goals. This team will score - the question is will they compete in games and win? Where are the leaders who motivate the team to dig in and defend when the going gets tough? I see Howson and Ayling. Who else alongside the veterans?
I’m assuming that the way Carrick wants to play is the way the team did in his first season.
If that’s the case, then the idea was that only one of the two fullbacks would go forward at once - in that case Giles on the left as Smith stayed back on the right - leaving a back three when in possession. That then created the five up front much like I mentioned at the top clubs earlier.
The problem as I see it is that one of the two central midfielders also seems to push on, sometimes even both, leaving us exposed. If both hold the centre then you have that central double-screen or “box” as it seems to be called within the game.
The top teams push a midfielder forward but cover for it with a fullback pushing into midfield to maintain control, only leaving space out wide. We may not have a fullback in the right mould for that tactic unless you were to play Howson there for instance, but we can insist that both Hayden and Aiden don’t get sucked forward and play a more supporting than active role in the attacks.
Hopefully the new left back is that attacking one with Ayling staying back to make a three, with the centre mids playing a more controlled positional game.
That would help us greatly when we lose the ball but we still have the problem of finding the back of the net and potentially with one or even two fewer players getting forward to overload and create.
I like what I’ve seen from Conway so far. Perhaps he too can make the difference as I don’t think we can expect consistently good finishing from Jones or Azaz, although both have other strengths.
Gilbert’s stock continues to rise but he is another who looks to create rather than score himself. As it stands I prefer him to Azaz but am hoping that Conway usurps them both.
@k-p-in-spain. It's fortunate that we have the International break after the Cardiff game.
Anything other than a result and the plebs will not be happy. We really need a win, whether MC can pick a team to perform and secure 3 points is debatable at this moment.
Can we really be better defensively. Can the forwards start doing what they are paid to do. As Dormo asked, what are the ODDS. Not good I would say.
The team as a whole are going to have to be better than they have been to date.
All sounds good in theory with players seamlessly knowing their roles as cogs in the machine - though there's probably that usually problem of emulating the best teams in the PL with Championship-level players who don't quite have the same skill, concentration, consistency and physical attributes as their world-class counterparts. At least they're playing against other Championship players who are equally lacking.
I'd also quite like to be a fly on the wall in the dressing room when Carrick tells Luke 'the assist machine' Ayling he's going to be the 'holding' fullback - In our last 12 games of last season when we went on our winning run Ayling made 8 assists - plus he missed the Leeds game due to being on loan (the only one we lost) and had to play centre-back against Blackburn too.
On that basis I'd definite wouldn't want to restrict Ayling from getting forward as that's his game. In context the much sought-after Ryan Giles only made 4 assists in his final 20 games for Boro and that was in just 2 games. Though I don't think our new Brazilian full-back is one who favours defending over getting forward.
Anyway, it's not easy getting the right balance - especially with injuries and the need to rest players when playing twice a week - though we did see players coming in and knowing the system last season and hopefully that will continue once the new boys are up to speed - though I'm still unsure of our defensive capability and ability to play out from the back without regular mishaps.
Chris wrote:
"Where are the leaders who motivate the team to dig in and defend when the going gets tough? I see Howson and Ayling. Who else alongside the veterans?"
I like Latte Lath as a leader, too. Also Conway looks like the type but young and definately Leninhan (and perhaps van den Bergh in the future).
But in that way, we rely on Howson in midfield. Up the Boro!
My last comment on the Stoke match. Did anyone notice that Ben Gibson was on the bench of Stoke City? He did not get any play time, though. I think he made a three-year contact with them this summer.
@werder Please delete my dublicate potsts above. Every time I edited the post, it made a new post of it. Never had it before ...
Up the Boro!
@powmillnaemore - That would be a novel approach but it's difficult to imagine it would end up worse than a 0-5 spanking, so it might be worth a try!
Off to Leyburn today until Sunday so I will follow the Cardiff game via BBC Tees commentary.
Incidentally, for those who wonder what's the point of a caravan... Mine is parked on the drive, hitched up to the electrics and within about 5 yards of the water tap. It's been a godsend in the last two weeks whilst our central heating boiler has suffered a broken pump. It has not been an issue missing the heating of the house as the house itself is a fairly level 20-22C downstairs, though that would no doubt be different if this were being typed in January. But there is no hot water at all, and cold showers are not pleasant.
Luckily (1) the pump is being replaced TODAY (yippee!) (2) we've been able to shower in the caravan where hot water has been no issue at all. The shower in the house after our return on Sunday afternoon will be LONG, very warm and very much looked-forward to. You use MUCH more water in the house than in a "leisure vehicle" as you don't have to fill up the Aquaroll in the house, but simply turn on the taps/shower! Also the hot water tank/cylinder is very much smaller in the van. Still, it's done a sterling job these last 2 weeks!