I thought our other senior coach was an international defender with vast experience? I must be confused.
UTB,
John
I thought our other senior coach was an international defender with vast experience? I must be confused.
UTB,
John
John so did I maybe he has been replaced by a doppelganger, doesn't bode well for the rest of the season, at the moment I can't see us bothering the top 6 this season.
Also watched the WBA feed and towards the end it said Matt Crooks was confronted by two fans
Not sure where MC and the Boro go from here. Whilst the Coach cannot be blamed for poor individual errors, the inherent weaknesses were there all last season, masked by Akpom and his goals.
I cannot see anything that has changed to alleviate or even reduce these weaknesses, knowing that we would not be scoring the same amount of goals this season.
Somebody needs to take responsibility for this issue, be it the DoF or MC or even Mr Gibson. It will be interesting to see who MFC can convince to join us given our predicament.
EG Ratings
Seny Dieng - 6
There was nothing much the goalkeeper could do with any of the goals. Remained calm on the ball despite the circumstances, and was unlucky to be narrowly beaten for Sarmiento's goal which killed off the late rally.
Tommy Smith - 3
The full-back was handed his first start of the season but endured a torrid afternoon against Phillips. His dismissal minutes after Boro conceded a third meant it could have become a damage-limitation exercise.
READ MORE: West Brom X-X Middlesbrough highlights and reaction
Dael Fry - 5
Handled the aerial challenge well and okay in possession, but along with his fellow defenders did not close down Swift for the second.
Darragh Lenihan - 5
Steady performance but the central pairing were largely let down by their full-backs and central midfielders.
Lukas Engel - 4
The summer signing enjoyed an encouraging debut last time out, but will want to forget this showing. West Brom regularly found space in behind on both flanks, and the left-back gifted the hosts a third with a backpass straight to Thomas-Asante.
Jonny Howson - 5
Recycled the ball well enough, but was beaten too easily for the first goal and was unable to offer his defence much protection as West Brom countered at pace.
Hayden Hackney - 6
Constantly made himself available and was tidy on the ball, but was unable to provide much going forward as the visitors struggled to make much in attack.
Riley McGree - 5
Busy and unlucky to not open the scoring after pouncing on a loose touch from Ajayi. However, this industry failed to produce anything tangible.
Samuel Silvera - 6
Decent display from the winger. Showed strength to hold off a challenge and dig out a delivery for Latte Lath's goal.
Morgan Rogers - 4
Struggled to make an impact in the final third as Boro struggled in the final third. An obvious candidate to be substituted after Smith's dismissal.
Emmanuel Latte Lath - 7
The only real bright spot for Boro as the summer signing scored his first goal for the club. Did not receive much service but took his header well, and almost fashioned a second after latching on to a clearance.
Substitutes
Isaiah Jones (Rogers 59) - 7
A lively cameo from the 24-year-old. Unlucky to see a fine curled effort bounce back off the post before Boro's second.
Paddy McNair (McGree 59) - 6
Helped Boro regain their shape after Smith's red card, but was unable to prevent Sarmiento from netting the fourth goal.
Marcus Forss (Silvera 72) - 6
Held his nerve and made no mistake from the penalty spot to give Boro brief hope of staging an unlikely comeback with 10 men.
Matt Crooks (Latte Lath 72) - 6
Provided a focal point in the closing stages as Carrick's side pushed or an equaliser, but was unable to fashion an opening for himself or a team-mate.
According to Bernie Slaven tonight on his blog..
This is the worst start for Boro in 20 years.
Also said MC is not happy and quoted that he said "sometimes things are taken out of your hands"
Bernie said our last win was on April 19th?
a new low, introduce a Young tall strong fearless striker, with a shot, with two minutes to go, and fail to give him the ball. Hhm! Our longing to see him chasing a long ball into the box, in the air or on the ground is doomed to be disappointed.Well Boro shot themselves in both feet at the start of the second half and left themselves the proverbial mountain to climb - still they almost created a miracle with Jones coming off the bench to be his unplayable best and could have scored 2 with a bit of luck.
Alas is was not to be and Boro were ultimately poor defensively today as you can't give away 4 goals and expect anything. However, can't say I wasn't entertained this afternoon but looking like a tough season to achieve a top six at this stage.
MC not happy, I'm sure he knew the strictures that he has to work under, maybe him an his coach should try and sort out the team given that is what he is paid for. This issue is not new given we haven't won since April and the goals dried up at the end of last season.
Maybe it's time for them to put on their man pants and try and rectify our shortcomings.
As a previous manager was known to say "it is what it is"
On the plus side we were of a low quality and went up one place in the table.
By my reckoning, we’ve now not won in 9 league games over this season and last. We’ve lost 6 of those games, including all 4 regular away games ( ie, we drew the away playoff leg at Coventry), at Luton, Rotherham, Coventry and now WBA. I posted recently that MC is perhaps facing a degree of challenge as a coach he’s never had to face previously. Well, that challenge is now twice as hard.
One issue I see is the plan B question. I don’t see any sign of MC trying any other method than his tried and trusted attacking philosophy. Yet we’ve given away 9 goals so far in 4 games. Surely there has to be a recognition from the coaching staff that you solve defensive problems first, then the pretty football can come later? Teams have obviously worked us out. I think MC now needs to work really hard first and foremost on making us hard to beat. The question is, can he and his coaching team do it? Do we have the playing personnel, or do we need a really strong, muscly defender and a hard-tackling holding midfielder? Will we get them before 31 August. I’m very concerned.
I’ve read the reports and watched the highlights. It is clear that Boro are in a mess. MC is putting a brave face on it but must be worried.
The two main problems to me is a lack of leadership on the pitch and the team just can’t defend. I’m not optimistic that a couple of new players will improve the position they’re in. Morale must be going down with each performance.
Most teams in Boro’s position would make themselves hard to beat by not conceding goals and planning to nick a goal. But Boro have repeatedly proved that they can’t defend. So I can’t see an obvious way forward. Not sure MC can either.
And what about Smith? He should be fined for stupidly getting a second booking when there was no real danger. He didn’t have to grab the opponents shirt. An example of a player without a brain whose action makes the team’s chances of getting a result much more difficult.
Philip from Huddersfield 🙁🤔
@clive-hurren The team played some very good and neat football. Nice triangular passes and had 15 shots, 5 on target against their 7 & 4.
The trouble was once, poor service to Latte Lath, not ONE cross from Engel in two games. Then repeating myself, defensively we are a shambles, Karanka would be pulling his hair out.
I just do not where we go from here. MC does not sadly appear to have the tactical nouse or probably the players to change direction. We are lightweight and brittle. We look good on the ball, but very little with it.
There may be nothing in Bernie Slaven’s comment re MC’s “sometimes things are taken out of your hands”. But as we all know and Clive confirmed the stats of wins and losses since April, it appears allis not well in Camp MFC.
@philip-of-huddersfield And to think he was given a new two year contract. It beggars belief on the thoughts of those giving out contracts.
A worrying defensive display by Boro yesterday that is appearing to be the norm away from home - that's now 9 (nine) goals conceded in our three away games this season if you include the Caraboa Cup.
Boro are looking too passive without the ball and content to hold their shape and back off when players run at them. Pressing is also half-hearted with it being done by a few individuals rather than effectively as a team - which only serves to create the space for the opposition to pass their way further up the pitch.
The second goal yesterday should never have been scored as Boro had seven players behind the ball with only two opposition players to cover and the man in possession. Howson simply jogged alongside and looked to encourage the player to go wide, Smith backed off as he was also covering the pass to the man out wide - with Fry and Lenihan both marking Asante and backing off. At no point did anyone attempt to engage the player with the ball and he ran 20 yards to the edge of the box and when he shot 5 Boro players were all 2 yards away from him with Fry being wrong-footed by his token leg raise to block an early shot that never came.
The third goal was simply an horrendous back pass by Engel that should never have been attempted and the fourth was more static defending that left their man unmarked in the box. You could argue the first was a slight foul on Howson but I don't think he was going to be able to head the ball - the main problem was that Boro failed to prevent the flick-on from the throw-in.
All four goals were avoidable with better and more organised defending but with Boro looking less clinical up front the defensive weaknesses are going to cost far more points this season than last.
It may well be that Boro's midfield needs addressing as Howson doesn't have the recovery pace and we also need whoever plays the number ten role to be better at supporting the midfield defensively - Rogers was no where to be seen when their player ran on goal and also offered little as a playmaker yesterday.
Perhaps, Hackney or McGree would be better suited to the number ten role - especially away from home - plus it looks like Boro need an energetic enforcer in front of the defence if Howson plays. Howson is good at driving the team forward but not the man you want chasing after a breaking opposition player.
So will the transfer window deliver the reinforcements needed and can Carrick sort out the defensive shape and tactics - seems a lot to ponder in the coming weeks.
On the plus side, Latte Lath looks like he will score goals if given service and Silvera looked a better proposition on the right and dare I say Jones looked as good as anyone who has played on the left recently. Hackney also looks to have poise and class but the rest of the outfield are not convincing me that they deserve their shirt at the moment.
@werdermouth. A very good summary/inquest on yesterdays debacle.
I wasn’t surprised by the result as I had previously voiced my concerns about the defensive frailties of the team and that we were still work in progress.
I was, however, disappointed by the means of our defeat, particularly as the team on paper looked to be our strongest eleven, given the current players available.
The worry for me is that the current situation, if it persists much longer, will develop into a crisis.
This is likely to be the case if manager and players continue to believe that, if they continue to do what they have been doing, all will come right and that things are just not going for them at present!
This to my mind is delusional as we were poor defensively last season and results and performances turned down markedly following the last international break and have continued into this season.
I don’t disagree with the view that it is still early days and it is a long season with time to put things right but if changes are not made to improve our style of play when we do not have the ball then it will be an even longer and disappointing season.
Since our defeat at Huddersfield last season, more and more teams are adapting their tactics to counteract us as an attacking force and are able to exploit our defensive weaknesses; despite this we continue to play the same way and expect different outcomes.
So it is not just about personnel it’s about style and tactics that need adjustments but sadly I am not sure that is in MC’s thinking at present. 😎
I agree with Werder’s assessment of the problems facing MC at the moment. If there are going to be reinforcements arriving before the transfer window closes it seems to me that the priority should be put on defenders or defensive midfielders rather than additional attacking players. The attack yesterday showed that it can score goals but the defence showed yet again that it can’t keep them out.
There is little point therefore in bolstering the attacking manpower when it is painfully obvious that any remaining budget needs to be spent on defensive reinforcements. Maybe it might also be worth looking for someone with a proven track record to appoint as defence coach. That seems to be a gaping hole to at the moment too.
I've just found my prediction on the eve of the season
Yesterday looked very similar to what we saw under Woodgate when he was in charge and I wonder if the Carrick-Woodgate partnership is too focused on playing the expansive passing game ahead of having a solid base. All goals conceded can ultimately be put down to individual errors but it would be naive to believe that it's just a case of cutting out these errors. Preventing the opportunity to make errors is just as important and that usually involves adjusting the way you play in certain phases of the game.
OK, coaches have their preferred style of play and when it works Carrick's team play a very entertaining brand of football but something needs to be rethought when Boro are out of possession as the opposition look like scoring every time they hit us on the break in some games - especially away from home.
I think Boro need something extra in midfield and that can only come from bringing someone in - unless of course we have another energetic academy prospect who could be trusted like Hackney was.
Yes, the stats are looking a bit worrying with now no win in any of our last 9 league games and also a worry is that Boro have only won once away from home since that 3-1 win at Sheffield Utd back in mid-February that gave us hope of automatic promotion - and that was 11 March at Swansea. Also worth noting from a defensive point of view that it's now 13 league games since Boro last kept a clean sheet.
I don't know where to start after WBA 4-2 Boro yesterday. Maybe I'm not the only one but I'm not getting paid for my tactical acumen nor my playing ability. Those who ARE being paid had better come up with a (successful) plan which leads to improved performances very soon, or there will be consequences: supporters' discontent amongst those unpaid and job loss amongst those who are being paid.
I followed the game via the BBCTees live radio commentary. I have no doubt there were bright spots and "positives" to be taken from the game but they are greatly outweighed by the negatives and the result. I note WBA had 4 shots on target and scored 4 goals. That's a GOOD stat. Obviously from their point of view 10 shots on target and 10 goals would be better but, let's be honest, Boro would LOVE 4 goals whatever the other stats. Percentage possession, number of passes or number of tackles made, km (or even miles) travelled are all well and good but the ONLY stat that counts is goals scored and conceded.
A Boro clean sheet would be an EXCELLENT stat. It would be lovely to see one. I am excluding the pre-season friendlies which included the "thrilling" 0-0 away to mighty York City and the 2-0 win at Rotherham - following which Boro's defence has been undone by Real Betis (1 goal conceded), Bradford City (3), Auxere (2), Millwall (1), Huddersfield (League Cup - 2), Coventry (3), Huddersfield (League - 1) and then the 4 at WBA yesterday.
One can lose a closely contested game in which the team has played well against good opponents and still come away from the ground feeling enthused, upbeat and encouraged for the future. One can even lose against a team massively better in all areas of the game and, providing it appears everyone on the field is trying, it is STILL possible to leave the ground without feeling despair. I felt that way when a really good Brighton team soundly beat Boro in last year's FA Cup and I seem to remember games in the Premier League when Wenger's Arsenal playing at its best regularly stuffed Boro and we were able to watch Arsenal's artistry and athleticism and applaud despite the result. None of that has been in evidence this season so far, nor the tail end of last season. We haven't been playing world-beating teams and coming up, unsurprisingly, short.
I get that football is a competitive sport, that there is someone on the other side doing their best to undo, to undermine, all the good work that your team does. So that's not like the work a builder does or the work an accountant or a surgeon is carrying out (in all but the most heart-wrenching and unusual cases, everyone on the medical team is working towards the same end). So I am not saying that bad performances by a football team can always be equated with someone going into hospital to have his left leg amputated but the surgeon removed the other one by mistake. But there are many other areas in life where two "sides" are in conflict for example in the courtroom or on a battlefield. You can't win every court case nor win every battle fought and sometimes it pays to have a Plan B when the other side comes up with something you hadn't expected ("no battle plan surivives its first contact with the enemy" or, in boxiing terms from the previously ferocious Mike Tyson "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"). Sometimes when faced with overwhelming odds (not that Boro has faced such a situation yet this season) it is necessary for a general to fight a tactical retreat to minimise his losses and preserve strength for the future, and sometimes the courtroom lawyer will realise his line of questioning isn't providing the answers he'd been expecting but is actually undermining his own client's case, so he must adopt different tactics maybe following a different line. In simple terms a person in a hole might accurately identify his position and conclude he'd be better to stop digging. Because we all know if you keep doing the same thing, you're likely to get a similar outcome.
I must say that yesterday I was waiting for Tommy Smith to get his inevitable 2nd yellow card after his early first one, and then be sent off. Surely others on here could have seen it coming, too? Maybe not those on the coaching staff or maybe not Smith himself, though? Sometimes it is necessary to protect people from themselves. It MUST be more difficult for a team to play for a lengthy period with a man less than the opposing team. That was an example of shooting onself in the foot. And I suppose the backpass by Lukas Engel was another suicidal shooting-self-in-the-foot moment for which a coach can hardly be blamed and for which the player obviously would have been horrified. But you don't need a surgeon to amputate the patient's wrong leg if the patient shoots himself in BOTH feet, do you?
Sometimes you have to pretend to laugh. It's not an antidote but at least it is a distraction. But I just know the sort of things that will be said when I next go to the Battered Badger: Pick your favourite:
1. You're not still following that shower are you?
2. They'll always let you down in the long run.
3. Sack the manager/Board/Player X.
4. WHERE did you say Boro would finish in the league this season? ("You'll remember our chat in June...").
5. What is the club going to do? Surely not NOTHING?
6. Do you think it's so bad they might go down?
7. Change clubs, mate....!
Obviously that last option just isn't possible. I suppose if you moved to a different part of the country and missed the football you might end up going to watch the local club there and, after maybe a decade or so, you'd feel that you supported that club, but it's hardly likely for an old stager like me!
You beat me to it having chewed on disappointment since yesterday, hells bells, I even woke up thinking about it at 06.00. As a supporter I feel distinctly short-changed by Boro and I'm not paying to see them, would I pay? That's another question. If one of the solutions to the problem(s) is at the club don't loan them out.
As everyone has pointed out this is poor form and dare I mention relegation form? Another word ending -ion, promotion, is out of the question so I reckon the best we can hope for is consolidation and mid-table oblivion. Even that seems a trifle difficult to achieve now. We need a Souness or Leadbetter character now, please don't let that be a cue for panic buying but I do sense a little unrest amongst the supporters.
UTB,
John
Watched the Brighton v WHam game ,I understand Carrick is a accolight of the way Brighton play, well yesterday their keep ball tippy tippy football, making one more pass than needed was picked off all day by the hammers, it's a results game ,so must be able to adapt , either tactically or personnel on the field, are Carricks hands tide ,with us signing like for like, maybe going 442 bringing Coburn on yesterday at halftime might have changed things,although Smith is not what you want,
I'm concerned about Fry, he doesn't seem to have grown as a CB since his England U21 days, Lenehan is just an average Championship CB with all his faults,fans have fallen into the trap of he's not afraid to defend, but he can't read the game at times.
We've got to sort things out this week, whether we make signings or not, but we have to find our best eleven and stick to it.
@werdermouth I do not think many on here were too enamoured, when our new (inexperienced) Coach, was handed Mr Woodgate as his second in command.
The latter, possibly under difficult circumstances, failed miserably and was soon moved on. Now he returns with the knowledge of knowing all about MFC. So now two inexperienced Coaches, who are of course learning the game of Management and Tactics.
Unfortunately, as Werder said, both are out of the same bag with regards to the latter above. Would a more experienced Coach, have not been a better choice?
I think Brighton just had an off day yesterday as they've been pretty impressive in the last few seasons and have punched well above their weight and picked up some very profitable players along the way - so if Boro could emulate the Seagulls I'd be whooping for joy 😉
I think Woodgate didn't do too badly at Bournemouth but at the end of the day a lot depends on the players you have and the key to a good coach is getting the system to fit to the quality at his disposal. Carrick and Woodgate did amazingly well last season but they had a much higher quality squad to work with than this term - with perhaps the riches we had going forward masking the failings at the other end. A lot may depend on who comes through the door this week - otherwise they may struggle to find a good balance with quite a few inexperienced young players looking to find confidence in the face of bad results.
One of the things and I think we are missing , that can contribute to bad form , or distraction,is, this the time of year when agents start playing,games, we know alot of tapping goes on, so the agents get into their clients ear, either touts for a move or more money, if the club as a negative response , then issues could arise.this why some teams go from brilliant to bottom six.
I didn't know we had a wonder kid 😀
The start Boro have made this season is very similar to the last. Under Wilder our form was nearly there but the results did not follow.
Also last season we had a lot of new players in the squad and it took until the arrival of Carrick to click.
I do not mean we need a new head coach now. What I try to say when you sign nine new players in a window, the new players need time to settle. Even more so when they are quite young like this summer.
I love the fact that we are not relying on loans - when you need to start from zero every summer. If the loans have failed, you send the loan players back (remember Wilder's Aaron Connolly). If they are succesful, they go to the EPL (Archer, Giles, etc.).
This summer we have needed to sign too many new players. We have never started the season well after signing half of the team the same summer. There is a long list like Karanka in the EPL, Monk in the Championship, Wilder last season, etc. Even McClaren.
So stay calm. Wait until end of September to see how this new team will start to play. We have a good squad but they need time to gel. Up the Boro!