Well after that performance my glass is definitely half-empty and judging by the 'booze' around the Riverside at the final whistle I'm not alone.
Boro were simply not good enough again and unsurprisingly looked a disjointed team lacking cohesion and ideas with some of the new arrivals looking short of the quality and energy needed at this level. Unbelievably, the player who had shown the most energy and desire in Jones was the first to be subbed.
At least O'Brien looked the part when he came on and hopefully there will be some kind of rethink in the international break where McGree, O'Brien and Greenwood are starters rather than allowing giving the young projects first go at trying to show they can win a game.
Bottom of the league with one point, three goals and eleven conceded just about says it all.
Glad I missed that. This is Houston we have a problem territory.
Seriously have no idea what we do about this. We can't keep sacking managers so we have to stick with Carrick. This might not be as good a team as he inherited but there is no way it is bottom of the league standard.
Given that the poor run started last season with far better players you have to assume that Carrick, like Robbo, simply coasted along on the back of really good players and didn't know what to do when the wheels came off.
I guess the most positive reading of this is that he is potentially a decent manager but he got misled by his early results. He seems intelligent enough to realise that he can't carry on as he is. The question is, what is he going to do about it.
I thought there were many redeeming features of our defeat at West Brom last week, where we controlled some parts of the game and even threatened to snatch a point with ten men.
But I could see few chinks of light today. We were soundly beaten by a side who might well be facing relegation themselves this season.
The substitution of Jones seemed inexplicable to me, when Silvera failed to find a man in a Boro shirt for the entire game.
Engel had a nightmare against Smith, who had our recent signing on toast the entire game.
Hackney was off today. probably his poorest appearance in a Boro shirt, whilst Howson enacted the metaphor by feeling the heat in midfield.
Greenwood at least gave the impression of having some basic competence in the second half and O'Brien added some much needed energy.
But this was a game in which the policy of recruiting players untried and untested at this level got off to the worst possible start and did not augur well for the club's immediate future.
I think we are looking in the wrong place if our immediate response to the current situation is to criticise the manager for attempting to implement a club policy that is inherently so naive and ill thought out.
Just back from match, one word shambles, how is silvera staying on the pitch..., but in some ways that doesn't matter if you can't defend and we can't defend.
Is it too early to worry about relegation because if we keep playing like that that's were we are heading
Angry, disappointed but nothing I haven't seen before.
It's looking morecand more like last season was a one off
While I'm still fuming what about having a 3 v 1 in 2nd half and still failing to score 😱
No goals. No clean sheet. No points. No win in 5 league games. Bottom of the League.
Do I think MC can turn it around? No idea. What I do know is that he’s still a new coach and hasn’t experienced the position Boro are in. I also know that if the results continue as they are he will eventually be sacked.
There is no substitute for experience. Witness Neil Warnock who’s Huddersfield team were in a similar position to Boro after being thrashed 0-4 at home by Norwich. Today he goes to WBA and wins 2-1. That’s experience for you.
Philip of Huddersfield 🙁🙁🙁
Back home now to the inevitable comments from Mrs BBD! Cant say I blame her to be fair.
We were poor in all areas, too slow and poor passing when we tried to be quicker. Not sure who to blame, the players or the coach who gives the instructions. No idea what they get up to on the training pitch either.
Good job we have 2 weeks to try and sort it out although it was always going to be hard after the loanees left and we’re not replaced.
There May be a plan to build for the future and based on performance to date promotion not looking likely.
Anyway enough for now, I need a few drinks to try and forget about it and how I won’t get 7 1/2 hours of my life back.
on a positive note, it was good to catch up with my relatives and fortunately. I can’t get to a game for a while now! Unless I can get a ticket for the Bradford game………..
Real problems emphasised today.
One thing that really stood out to me was that our chief creators in today’s 4-2-3-1 - Silvera, Rogers and Jones - all struggle with end product. I don’t think we can expect to score enough goals with such a combination of hit, miss and flatter attacking midfielders.
The transfer window is shut so I would suggest McGree makes an immediate return and Hackney is pushed further forward - that’s possible now that O’Brien has come in. We lose some pace but gain some players who can actually look after the ball and play a telling pass in the final third.
Away from home is another situation altogether. I would suggest a tactical rethink where we sit deeper and play to Fry and Lenihan’s strengths of heading the ball away rather than chasing after breaking forwards. Then the pace of Jones and Silvera becomes more interesting as a threat on the break, but no place for Rogers any time soon for me.
Good points and I would also add that the forwards were not making runs to allow the likes of Jones to have a forward pass available after breaking out - only really Latte Lath but his finishing didn't look too clinical. I guess that 3 on 1 also demonstrated that our forwards are not natural attacking players who know how to make the right runs.
I did suggest Hackney as a possible number ten for the reasons you outline but Rogers didn't seem to be able to either hold the ball or find a teammate, which is not ideal for a number ten. The return of Forss would help but at the moment there's no sign of anyone being the kind of clinical finisher we saw last season - Silvera struggles to get within a few yards of the target when shooting.
Two weeks for Carrick to get a team working together - though I believe some are off on international duty so they must be a few good players in there!
Do we have a defensive coach? Well one who knows anything?
Desperate days begin here for me and this is beyond relegation form. To get out of this Boro need to find promotion level form just to stand still. Can anyone see them achieving that? No, I can't either, they look clueless, a 'road to Damascus' level of change is needed or Boro will simply remain cannon fodder for every one, well certainly the other two relegation places.
I cannot believe there will be any positive spin on this. the first change must be on how the team is selected and then how the substitutes are used.
Utterly depressing for me.
UTB,
John
John sums it up perfectly. The team is in a mess and needs a win desperately and quickly. It is abundantly clear to anyone watching recent matches and especially today’s that the team put on the pitch today isn’t going to get one. Rogers and Silvera who are development projects for the future are not good enough yet for the cut and thrust of The Championship. It would appear that MC recognises that he needs more experience in the squad which is why O’Brien and Greenwood arrived at the last minute. Add McGree to the mix and you have three players who could make a massive difference in the midfield of the team.
We shall soon find out whether MC does in fact recognise that the development projects are not going to hack it yet by the team he selects for the next game. I hope he will opt for experience and let the development projects wait for a while. However, I have to say that not starting McGree today and substituting Jones raised major question marks in my mind about his judgement. How he handles the current crisis will be critical to his and the club’s future.
I said at the time we should have went after Ryan Lowe when he was at Plymouth, it doesn't matter now, but you know Carrick will take the knife because of Gibsons and Scott's ineptitude, cheap shopping, I'm sure Carrick hasn't been to Australia, Switzerland , Holland div 2, not forgetting reserve and div3 , leagues to get the next super star has he,
Something isn't right,why buy two left backs, this goes back to last season when he said the transfer process is already in place , we will be patient and not panic buy, maybe Chuba knew what was coming,
We all know we need solid experienced mobile defenders Fry and Lenehan are typical throw back CB , they can play North and South heading clear but can't and are not quick enough when they have to move around chasing quick forwards,
I'm sure eventually we will win some games, but this is bad going back to last season, many clubs have thought relegation couldn't happen to them, but eventually bad decisions will catch up with you, I hope I'm very wrong.
The only players who looked really switched on going forward were Coburn, Greenwood, O'Brien, Jones and McGree. Coburn in particular has turned into a beast and made me think of Ferguson of Brighton who is monstering defences at the age of 18.
The centre halves and keeper were not the issue today. The first goal was an absolute unstoppable screamer and the second was a well hit shot in a crowded area. There will always be chances given away and our issue is that we are not scoring goals.
Hackney had a poor game by his standards but that happens. He will come back, particularly when he, O'Brien and Greenwood get their act together. Howson wasn't really there and maybe he will now become back-up to O'Brien or perhaps drop in as a more defensive player in front of Lenihan and Fry.
Latte Lath struggled and I'm not sure why but he has shown that he is lively and you can't expect him to carry a poor attack with no supply. I wonder if he and Coburn can play in the same team.
We have another left bank to slot in and we must hope that he will be better defensively than Engel who was roasted by Smith.
You can also add in Forss who always gives a solid performance.
With these players, I can see the makings of a team but just not the one that was picked by Carrick today. I can understand giving Silvera his shot and there is a player in there as may well be the case with Rogers but, ahead of them, he has to play McGree who is a quality player.
They all need a lot of time on the training ground getting to know each other and I suppose that the international break has come at exactly the right time although its a shame to see McGree away from the squad.
There seems to me no point in complaining about Carrick. The club is on a long term plan and we have to give the management and the new players some time to make it work.
UTB
Something I picked up from X (no, I am still happily married):
Biggest spenders in the transfer market from the Championship (according to @Transfermarkt):
1️⃣ Leicester - £38 million
2️⃣ Leeds - £31 million
3️⃣ Coventry - £26 million
4️⃣ Southampton - £19 million
5️⃣ Stoke - £12 million
6️⃣ Middlesbrough - £8 million
This was @secondtierpod.
So we have spent money, a load of new players and a good tranfer policy without too many loan players. Now we need TIME to train and get the team functioning.
Up the Boro!
I agree with much of the previous posts but two observations, made by Deleriad and Andy, are both astute and concerning.
Deleriad:
“Given that the poor run started last season with far better players you have to assume that Carrick, like Robbo, simply coasted along on the back of really good players and didn't know what to do when the wheels came off.”
Andy:
”One thing that really stood out for me was that our chief creators in today’s 4-2-3-1 - Silvera, Rogers and Jones - all struggle with end product. I don’t think we can expect to score enough goals with such a combination of hit, miss and flatter attacking midfielders.”
Should SG be thinking that like Robson, Carrick needs an experienced head to support him through a difficult period?
During MC’s tenure to date, I have not observed much in the way of tactical nous and if we continue to play in the same manner then I fear the worse.
O’Brien should help to stiffen the midfield but we need more than just personnel changes and Andy’s suggestion of switching to a back three for away games is worthy of consideration.
I also agree that MC is now having to manage players who are not of the calibre of those available to him last season and whilst some of this can be laid at the door of the recruitment team, he is integral to that process so has to take partial responsibility.
Playing players out of position and not picking McGree is down to him and suggesting that if they stick to what they have been doing all will come right will just not wash.
On performances during pre-season and to date, Silvera and Rogers are not good enough at this level. The jury is out on Engel and Latte Lath is another Assombalonga, he will miss more than he will score as the team currently stands as he will have far fewer clear cut chances. I think we have also seen the best of Jones in previous seasons but may have to persevere with him.
At lot of learning on the job to do for MC in the next few weeks which could well determine his future. 😎
No surprise Boro haven't spent as much as others - though not sure on the exact figure as much is not definitively published but if Boro did spend only £8m and around £5m went on Latte Lath and around £2m on Dieng then the other £1m has been spread quite thinly 🤔
Not sure if Boro have the time to wait for some of the players who arrived to find their feet as being bottom of the league with just a point doesn't give any head coach that luxury.
While I agree many of the young players who arrived will need time to be trained into the way Boro want to play, I would prefer to see them being introduced from the bench when we're not chasing the game.
I would hope Carrick goes predominantly with players who have Championship experience as after the international break Boro have 5 games in 14 days with possibly only the Carabao Cup game where he could take a few risks.
Still, Carrick will be aware he doesn't have the same quality of squad that he had last season as seeing Archer score essentially two goals for Sheff Utd with clinical quality demonstrated.
Anyway, much to ponder in the next two weeks for Michael Carrick and decide who can do a job now and who needs more time to develop up to the standard required.
Howson is showing his age and I wonder if he could do a job requiring less energy as a central defender.I seem to remember that he had a couple of games last season in that position and played well. The bonus was that he was comfortable bringing the ball out of defence and he read the game well.
This would leave enough midfielders now we have O’Brien to partner Hackney.
I think the time has come to pack the team with experience and for that reason alone I’d have Crooks back in the team. Not everyone’s favourite I know but he scores a few goals.
just a couple of thoughts
Philip of Huddersfield
I’m not sure about the back three but I do think we need to look at the players we’ve got, what they can and can’t do, and setup accordingly.
High pressing and a high defensive line works brilliantly for several of the top teams but do we have the ingredients to make it work?
Defensively, I would say no. Fry, Lenihan, McNair and Smith are all very decent Championship defenders but the one thing they all lack is pace. The same goes for Howson in front of them.
With a high line we leave space behind and have a total lack of recovery pace. That’s why I suggest sitting deeper and playing on the counter away from home.
I’m also concerned about our setup in midfield. We play two deep-lying midfielders and a no. 10 but the majority of the players we have, in my view, are neither one nor the other. Howson, Hackney, McGree, Barlaser and Crooks are all natural no. 8s in view, not specialist holding midfielders or traditional no. 10s.
To my layman’s eye the best fit would be a deeper 4-3-3 if O’Brien can play as a defensive midfielder shielding the back four.
I often think the most effective midfield mix for a 4-3-3 is a tackler, a passer and one who breaks forward into the box. If O’Brien is the tackler, Hackney and Barlaser are the passers and then it’s your choice of McGree, Crooks and Greenwood for the one who gets forward. McGree can also be the passer but equally can play as part of the front three. I would play him off the left as he did last season, coming inside and creating space for Engel or the new lad to break forward from left back.
A back three with the same midfield mix could also work, presumably with Jones reverting to right wingback. I feel less keen on that.
I’m struggling to find any positives at all from yesterday’s defeat. You could say that we created a number of one-on-ones, but of course we missed them all. At least 4 times Begovic saved with his legs, but Boro kept on shooting low, rather than aiming higher or attempting the dink over the diving keeper. How we missed the aplomb of Archer and Akpom, who would surely between them have taken at least one of those chances.
Other than that, I felt that O’Brien and Greenwood added a bit of stability and nous. I agree with fellow bloggers that now is the time to get them in the side.
For the first time this season the crowd started to get very agitated and frustrated. There was a significant amount of booing at the end from those Boro fans who stayed to the bitter end. Not a good sign, given that this team is currently very fragile and confidence is clearly low.
There was also significant booing when Jones was substituted. I thought this was aimed at Isaiah himself, as he had just messed up our excellent chance of three against one. I felt the crowd reaction was unduly unfair as Jones had been one of our better performers. Perhaps I got it wrong, though? Perhaps the crowd booed precisely because he was the wrong player to take off? What do you think, those of you who were there?
That’s an excellent analysis and tactical contribution, Andy. I’m not really competent to comment for or against, but I do wonder if we might use Engel as the left side man in a front three or middle three. He was originally a winger, I believe? So far, I’ve been very unimpressed with his defensive work, compounded again yesterday when Smyth frequently took him to pieces. Perhaps that’s why Boro bought Bangura. Perhaps we might use Bangura as the full-back and move Engel further forward? Silvera may ultimately come good, but he’s clearly not up to standard yet, so why not use the two left-sided ‘full-backs’ in tandem?
And please, Mr Carrick, stop this failed experiment with Rogers as number 10!
@andy-r. I agree Andy something needs to change and at the moment it appears you have given more thought to it than MC and his coaching team. 😎
I went to the Battered Badger yesterday after the Boro v QPR game. I asked for a pint of Hemlock but they had none. It would have to be three pints of Banks' Sunbeam instead. I have to say Banks produces some very average beers but the Sunbeam, properly kept, can be REALLY good. Brighton v Newcastle was showing on the TV. Newcastle, as one might have expected because Brighton has a very good team, was very much the second-best team on show and were well beaten so the two Geordies I was sitting with ended up as glum as I felt.
A few thoughts on the QPR game without going into detail:
1. McGree must start games.
2. Silvera, Rogers and Engel in particular struggled. Why wasn't Silvera substituted first?
3. That 3-on-1 (!). How was that missed? (It was the cause of booing near where I was sititing).
4. I accept their keeper did well BUT up front Boro's finishing is the opposite of clinical.
5. If it's obvious things are going wrong proper steps must be taken to put them right - a Plan B.
Voices may be heard saying it's good that we are now entering a two week international break which will allow the coaches time to see the new players on the training pitch and start the "bedding-in" process. That ignores a number of factors. Firstly several of the players will NOT be available for that work because they may be joining their international squads, although you have to sympathise with any international squads populated with Boro players bearing in mind how those men have been playing in Boro's red shirts. There must be some VERY weak international teams out there! Secondly it assumes that Boro's coaching squad has the ability to do what is required. Thirdly it assumes that the other teams out there stand still rather than taking their own steps to improve THEIR performances - for example I guess any teams playing Boro in the next couple of months will have tapes of Boro's recent games. It won't take long to identify glaring gaps, and identify players who are trying to do things they aren't capapble of doing at a tempo they can't cope with. It won't take long to spot that the Boro team, which at the start of the season some thought would be amongst the favourites in the promotion race, is infact an King with no clothes.
There are precious few "positives" to be gleaned from a performance so inept and depressing as the one against QPR. The most obvious is that, now Boro has found itself at the very bottom of the league table, the only way is UP (the alternative is too grim to contemplate). I recall Maddo saying during the radio commentary (I had earphones in as I watched the game at the Riverside) that QPR was a "bang average team". If he is correct then clearly Boro must be very much BELOW average. Boro made QPR look OK.
Maybe that is Boro's new Mission Statement: "To spread joy and satisfaction amongst the wider Football Family by giving poor teams the opportunity to flourish and feel the joy of success in Championship matches, and to give heart to the supporters of those other teams." It's working so far....
Still struggling to get over the 3 v 1, how inept so you have to be not to score.....
Maybe I need to sit in a darkened room, it's only a game after all.
Watching the match yesterday, the thought came into my head “this is reminiscent of when Woodgate was manager” and we all know what happened then ! I also remember some discontent within the dressing room at the same time (who has McGree upset), considering we are leaking goals at a rate of knots, Woodgate an ex highly rated CB, so just what is he bringing to the table. I personally think it is time he was replaced and an experienced No 2 brought in to guide Carrick along the track to be coming a decent manager.
I am away to Egypt early tomorrow morning and I don’t know what the internet strength will be like so I might not be able to contribute much until I return on the 19th.
werdermouth, thank you for an excellent “last minute sub” opener and I hope everyone keeps well while I am away.
Come on BORO.
@exmil. Safe travelling Exmil and enjoy your time away.
Your thoughts on support for MC mirror my own which, I posted earlier today. 😎
As I mentioned in my preview, since Boro already have 9 attack-minded players to fit into just 4 positions, the chances of promoting Lukas Engel from full-back to the left-sided attacking role are slim - especially as we've not seen much from him as a goal provider. Besides, McGree is the obvious left-footer plus O'Brien is also left-footed - as of course is Alex Bangura, who has also played left-wing.
Incidentally, I also wrote there was a lot riding on QPR's right-winger going forward given he was the only attacking player they bought in the summer - well that right-winger was Paul Smyth and gave Engel a torrid time all afternoon - he arrived on a free from Leyton Orient but at the ripe old age of 25 probably didn't fit the moneyball profile of Keiran Scott.
You mean the same Jonathan Woodgate who won Manager of the Month in December 2019 at Boro and once again in April 2021 when in charge of Bournemouth. Steve Gibson will probably end up putting him back in charge at Boro at the end of October if Michael Carrick doesn't turn things around 😉
Still, he did seem an unlikely appointment as a number two at the time and it does appear that he's constantly giving advice to Carrick during the game - though not much sign that advice has proved useful this season!
Having said that here's what Darragh Lenihan said of Woodgate back in May: "He’s been exceptional, especially for us as defenders. The work he does with the defensive unit - not just the defenders but the goalkeepers and midfielders included - is really detailed and really thorough."
So how do we explain the lack of defensive solidity since March if that is the case? Some things just never seem to add up!
Anyway, enjoy being on international duty in Egypt - hopefully Boro will be much better when you return.
One thing I liked about Warnock is he could give and take a bolloking ,five minutes later it was over, no repercussions, some managers sulk ,I hope Carrick isn't one of those,but this chopping and changing is a concern,
I think someone stepped in and said Coburn ain't going anywhere after watching this shower, what about Finch, Hannah, Stott, Cartwright, you telling me what's come in are far superior than them, watched the enemy who've spent nothing they destroyed Southampton with speed and mobility around the pitch,they also had defenders who were willing to put their body on the line,we have players who are just looking after their careers ,
You just have to think we're these incomings have come from,and put straight into the starting eleven, Strachan and Monk have returned.
@werdermouth As one or two have said, if we continue as we are, Mr Gibson will reluctantly have no choice but to sack MC.
Our worst nightmare, but a very cheap option for the Owner who appears to has reduced his monetary support would be Woodgate.
As to the position of the club at this moment, bottom and looking very vulnerable, it does not surprise me. In fact I had the Boro down as an underachiever in Powmill’s COTS challenge.
Yes there was the loss of the loanees, compounded by Akpom leaving, but this was well known by everybody if we failed to go up, which to be honest, looked more unlikely as the season ran to its conclusion.
So the summer recess arrives and we start looking for replacements and decide to go down a very different avenue. Bingo, we start well by getting Dieng, but then a plethora of unknown and relatively unknown players are brought in. None, Rogers apart and only limited, with any Championship experience.
Again, as I have said on many occasions and others have agreed, MFC do nothing about beefing up the defensive collective of the back four and midfield. Well not until deadline day when it is truly obvious and we sign O’Brien. I do not agree with some posters that the two CB’s are adequate, never mind Smith.
We then pay money and sign Latte Lath, Engels and finally Bangura. None with any Championship experience and having played their football at a lower level to boot.
So we now have the shambles that has unfolded. Who has made these decisions, given how blindingly obvious we needed some additional experience brought in, especially to reduce the number of goals we concede, given we were certainly never going to replicate last seasons goals tally.
I do feel for MC, as I think he has been short changed and I am not convinced Scott knows what he is doing.
The chances of any of the “projects” making it at Championship level is low. We have seen Rogers and Silvera play a numbers of games and they do not impress. The money signings, Engel looks out of has depth, and Latte Lath, although he has something, is not going to score anywhere near the goals we need from him.
And to compound all of this, there are doubts as to the capabilities of MC, to be able to sort out the team tactically, to enable us to start getting points on the board before it becomes possibly too late.
He does have two weeks, maybe a couple of games behind closed doors, but he is missing the three Aussie lads, Lenihan, McNair, Hackney and Dieng.
One can only hope O’Brien can give the defence some additional cover, Greenwood is a revelation and Latte Lath learns how to chip a goalkeeper when in a one on one situation.
MC also needs to pick his best and most experience players, starting with McGree and I also include Jones as the only player we know has pace.
Clive, I think the boos, when Jones was subbed, was because the majority of the crowd thought Silvera should of gone off.