On the subject of money and of course the transfer market, as the two go together. I believe that NW has very strong views on 'value for money'. I have no knowledge of this but he has made several pretty strong statements regarding his views on talent versus cost. I should imagine that he has the ear of SG and would not allow any wild overpaying on any one player. If this is so, then I would be very happy. In fact I would be optimistic that we might finally emerge from the rut we made for ourselves by being obsessed by 'local lads'. Remember them?
Uncle Eric ponders on the Gazette Live:
'Warnock’s men have reached new heights by scoring a dozen goals in their last five outings, including two threes and a four.
'This is a massive improvement on anything the team achieved last season and also in the first few months of the current campaign'
What can we moan next? Crowds at the Riverside?
Up the Boro!
Gulp, no league matches for a fortnight or so. Can I have my money back?
Next Saturday, we will start our trip to Wembley. Who were the last Championship (or 2nd tier) club to win the FA Cup? Sunderland in 1970's, perhaps.
Up the Boro!
Well Boris is about to address the Nation this evening and unfortunately I doubt it will contain much in the way of glad tidings.
Shudder the thought but should the Football season be curtailed could we see the Leagues finish "as is" with a mathematical adjustment for those clubs who have played 22 games instead of the magical 23 half way point?
Gulp, no league matches for a fortnight or so. Can I have my money back?
Next Saturday, we will start our trip to Wembley. Who were the last Championship (or 2nd tier) club to win the FA Cup? Sunderland in 1970's, perhaps.
Up the Boro!
I think it was West Ham when they beat Arsenal in the late seventies and before them Southampton when they beat Man Utd about two or three years after Sunderland's win. No doubt Ken can correct or corroborate with the exact details when he has time.
With regard to several of the recent posts bemoaning our lack of consistency...
Norwich excepted there is no outstanding team in the top 10 and we are in there within a few points of all the "top" teams so far. Ergo, we really are as good as any team in the top 10 and it is not at all fanciful to imagine that in this season we could even achieve automatic promotion.
My glass remaineth half full ...
@ Jarkko
@ Redcar Red
There have only been 8 FA Cup winners from the lower divisions:-
Southampton 1901 when they were a Southern League club. However the other 7 were Second Division clubs; Notts County 1894, Wolves 1908, Barnsley 1912, West Brom 1931, Sunderland 1973, Southampton 1976, and as RR states West Ham in 1980 when they beat Arsenal 1-0 with a John Devine goal in the 61st minute. Interestingly (or not) the referee was George Courtney who was born in Sennymoor. So no 2nd tier club has won it since the formation of the Premier League.
@powmillnaemore I admire your optimism but not at 1.63 points per game. That would bring us around the 74 or 75 points mark come the end of the season which just might scrape sixth place in the Play Offs. The problem is that while we may be as good as any team in the top 10 (excluding Norwich) so are the other top 10 sides (excluding Norwich). We need an extra nudge, something just that little bit more to make sure.
@ Jarkko
@ Redcar RedThere have only been 8 FA Cup winners from the lower divisions:-
Southampton 1901 when they were a Southern League club. However the other 7 were Second Division clubs; Notts County 1894, Wolves 1908, Barnsley 1912, West Brom 1931, Sunderland 1973, Southampton 1976, and as RR states West Ham in 1980 when they beat Arsenal 1-0 with a John Devine goal in the 61st minute. Interestingly (or not) the referee was George Courtney who was born in Sennymoor. So no 2nd tier club has won it since the formation of the Premier League.
So considering that no Club outside the top tier (no pun intended) has won the Cup in over forty years I hope we don't expend too much effort against Brentford on Saturday in risking fatigue and injuries in a competition long since devalued after selling its soul decades ago.
The glamour of the FA Cup has lost its shine for me. To me it's now a mere disruption to the main event of promotion and of no interest. When I was a little boy I could name all the FA Cup semi finalists and finalists, who played and who scored for who and who won the Cup. Players like Ian Callaghan, Brian Labone, Jim McCalliog, Tommy Baldwin, Jeff Astle, Joe Royle, David Nish and Neil Young were forever enshrined in splendid Topical Times or Charles Buchan black & white images.
The Arsenal team of Charlie George and Co. is the point when "Glam Football" started to take over and my passion started to dip, albeit it took another decade before it really started to wear thin.
For what it’s worth I think that Bournemouth will finish as Champions with Norwich fighting with Brentford for second place. Swansea should end up in the playoffs, but not sure about Watford, so although I don’t think think Boro will manage top 6, they’re certainly as good as any of the rest of the field. It’s the lack of depth in the squad which concerns me though and the lack of a consistent goalscorer who can score 14/15 goals in total that might deprive us of a top 8 finish or better.
@ Jarkko
@ Redcar RedThere have only been 8 FA Cup winners from the lower divisions:-
Southampton 1901 when they were a Southern League club. However the other 7 were Second Division clubs; Notts County 1894, Wolves 1908, Barnsley 1912, West Brom 1931, Sunderland 1973, Southampton 1976, and as RR states West Ham in 1980 when they beat Arsenal 1-0 with a John Devine goal in the 61st minute. Interestingly (or not) the referee was George Courtney who was born in Sennymoor. So no 2nd tier club has won it since the formation of the Premier League.
So considering that no Club outside the top tier (no pun intended) has won the Cup in over forty years I hope we don't expend too much effort against Brentford on Saturday in risking fatigue and injuries in a competition long since devalued after selling its soul decades ago.
The glamour of the FA Cup has lost its shine for me. To me it's now a mere disruption to the main event of promotion and of no interest. When I was a little boy I could name all the FA Cup semi finalists and finalists, who played and who scored for who and who won the Cup. Players like Ian Callaghan, Brian Labone, Jim McCalliog, Tommy Baldwin, Jeff Astle, Joe Royle, David Nish and Neil Young were forever enshrined in splendid Topical Times or Charles Buchan black & white images.
The Arsenal team of Charlie George and Co. is the point when "Glam Football" started to take over and my passion started to dip, albeit it took another decade before it really started to wear thin.
The game against Brentford is the perfect opportunity to test out exactly how good some of the younger players are. There is a big difference between a 15 minute cameo and actually starting a game and being expected to make an impact. I’d like to see Woods, Folarin, Jones and maybe a couple more given the chance to show where they stand. If we find that some aren’t quite ready, nothing lost but maybe we’ll have a pleasant surprise.
This would mean a rest for some of our key players and then everyone ready to go at the second part of the season.
UTB
I think Warnock has said that we won't win the FA Cup this season anyway. So hinting on players being rested.
@RedcarRed, yes, the 1970's and 1980's were great seasons for football. There were not many favourites in the first division, let alone the FA Cup. Not like the top six nowdays.
We even saw Forest winning the League after their promotion to the First Division. And I can still remember the Ipswich team winning the Cup with Sir Bobby Robson.
I personally think that the attraction of the Football League in all over the Europe was based on the fact that no team was a favourite to win the League nor the Cup. Unlike in Germany, where it was Bayer München in most season.
Up the Boro!
I think I can describe my personal opinion as to whether or rather where we are currently. It goes as follows. We are taking part in an awful lot of matches in which the ball stays in midair for long (and you can say that again) periods, we seem to be poor in the air, a lot of chances of a shot at goal Go begging for want of a twenty yard pass along the ground (yes, said pass never reaches its target) we seem to be unaware that if you give it height it takes longer to reach it's destination, simple math's! Let's not forget we have no idea who our best chance of scoring goals rests with. Being critical I would say our efforts this season consist of a series of excellent wins, and puzzling defeats, very few of the teams we meet can be described as over skillful, so whoever goes up can look forward to a season of hard graft. As our last attempt at the Prem. was written off prematurely before Christmas, (we decided we didn't like our Manager, something to do with throwing chairs) one hopes we have something better planned for this time.
@powmillnaemore I admire your optimism but not at 1.63 points per game. That would bring us around the 74 or 75 points mark come the end of the season which just might scrape sixth place in the Play Offs...
I hear what you are saying RR, but my point is that this is, overall, a poor league this season.
I know you can do anything with statistics, but we have pulled 2 points back on Reading and Watford over the last 6 games, and 3 on Bournemouth. Carrying that forward would see us comfortably in 5th place with a half a dozen games left to play.
Now I know that very few, or even none, of the teams in the top 10 will replicate their current 6 match form for the next 3 blocks of 6 matches. For some it will be worse form; some could put a tidy run together. What they all have in common so far this season though, is that none of them are absolutely consistent.
So, I will stick with my optimistic view that we could be competing for promotion at the end of the season...... if the season isn't abandoned that is!
My mistake... 1 point t on Bournemouth over the last 6 games.... I was twixt and between quoting the effect over the next 18 games which would be the equivalent of 3 points we might pull back on Bournemouth, but 6 on Watford and Reading....
Anyway, I hope you get the general idea I was trying to convey ....
Less haste and more speed me thinks 😉
I’ve just read through all your comments on the Wycombe game and beyond. Very entertaining, as ever, and very thought-provoking. I enjoyed the win and thought we played some good football. I also enjoyed the BBC commentary from the local 3 Counties team, which was due to the BBC banning its journos from leaving tier 4 areas. For what it’s worth, I’m in the glass half-full camp when it comes to the play-offs. I’ve seen enough so far under Warnock to feel that they are a definite possibility, especially now we’re scoring more goals, and providing, of course, that we avoid too many daft slip-ups like Hillsborough. I’m quietly confident at this stage. But as my brother often says, you win nowt in January!
Over on AV’s Patreon site (well worth the price if you haven’t seen it!) I commented that Marvin Johnson’s form is so good currently that we probably don’t need to pursue Bolasie. I was always uneasy with trying to get him, given our history with him and his lack of any meaningful football in yonks, and now I’m convinced that we should forget about him. Tav, Marv, Browne can all play the wing role if necessary, and Spence and even Coulson too. Let’s not waste our money, but concentrate instead on offering Watmore a deal he finds acceptable.
Talking a waste of money, was it £1 million quid we blew on Stejanovic? Value for money - a big fat NIL. He never really impressed and NW clearly didn’t rate him. Now he’s gone out on loan to Sankt Pauli. Can’t say I’ll miss him. Let’s hope the new lad, Jordan Archer (I’m bound to call him Jofra!!) is an improvement.
On to Brentford. Not a game I expect us to win, but I shall be mildly disappointed if we go out of the cup. Clearly our priority is the league, but good cup runs are a great way of boosting confidence and allowing fringe players time on the pitch, and besides, it’s been ages since we had a good run in any cup. We could do with the cash accumulated after progression up the rounds. Someone commented above that this is a good opportunity for some of the younger lads to play - Nathan Wood, Sam Folarin - to name but two. However, the fringe players will need to do better than they did against Barnsley in the League Cup - we were comprehensively outplayed that night. Finally, I’m wondering what sort of team The Bees will put out. They lost in the League Cup semi-final tonight, so might fancy another run in the FA Cup. On the other hand, I guess their top priority is promotion, especially after coming so close last season.
I’ve often mentioned the seasons when Boro regularly played 3 matches in 4 days over Christmas and Easter. The last time that happened in my lifetime was in 1963 when Boro beat Derby 5-1 on Good Friday, lost 1-4 the following day, then drew 3-3 at Derby on Easter Monday. I missed the only time that Boro won 3 matches in 4 days over Easter was in 1957 when I was in Singapore during my National Service days when Boro won 3-1 at home to Sheffield United on the Saturday and Huddersfield 7-2 and 1-0 on the Monday and Tuesday. The last time Boro played at home on Christmas Day was in 1956 when Boro beat Doncaster 3-2 after being 0-2 down at halftime and Harry Gregg (later to become the hero of the Munich Air Disaster) was the Don’s goalkeeper. The following season was to become the last time matches were played on Christmas Day, and it was rarely a good day after the war for Boro to win, although there had been two exciting encounters in 1953 as although Boro lost 2-3 against Newcastle at Ayresome Park, the following day they won by the same score at St James’s Park.
But an interesting story came to my attention just 10 days ago when Len Shackleton played and scored for two different clubs on Christmas Day 1940 in the Northern Wartime League. At the time the Bradford born inside forward was on the books of Bradford Park Avenue and scored against Leeds United in the morning and guested and scored for Bradford City against Huddersfield Town in the afternoon. During the war players were allowed to guest for clubs near where they were stationed and the man to be eventually known as ‘The Clown Prince of Soccer’ took advantage of the situation. For example Matt Busby occasionally guested for Boro, and I believe George Hardwick guested for Chelsea. As there were no floodlights in those days the usual kickoff times for afternoon matches in the winter was 2.15pm, so the morning match probably kicked off no later than 11am - no time for Christmas Dinner I assume.
The story about Len Shackleton was that after the cease of hostilities he signed for Newcastle United and on his debut scored 6 times in a 13-0 demolition of Newport County in a Second Division match. He left the Magpies after refusing to go on a Christmas Day scouting mission for them, and went on strike when the purchase of a club house didn’t materialise. He then signed for near neighbours Sunderland and often would stop play by sitting on the ball. In one instance against Arsenal with only 5 minutes remaining he dribbled around the Gunners defence, stopped to comb his hair, and then turned to face them before backheeling the ball into the net. He was a maverick full of tricks which did him no favours to the England selectors, one quipping that England played at Wembley Stadium, not the London Palladium. Of course most of us were aware of his autobiographic memoirs after he retired, with a chapter of pages left blank on what the average football director knew about football. However just as the England selectors were frightened years later to appoint Brian Clough as the England manager, they were frightened to select anyone like Shack with a personality. Perhaps he was his own worst enemy only earning 5 international caps.
Incidentally the only other player I can recall playing for two different clubs on the same day was the Arsenal goalkeeper Jack Kelsey playing for his club and Wales, but haven’t been able to trace where I read about it.
I once heard Tommy Lawton give a first-hand account on one of the reasons why Shack never played for England again.
In a coaching session with England Manager, Walter Winterbottom, the manager instructed the team at the chalkboard:
"Mr Swift, you throw the ball out to Mr Scott; Mr Scott you will pass he ball to Mr Matthews; Mr Matthews you will dribble the ball up the field, and get to the bye-line. You will then cut the ball back to the penalty spot. Mr Shackleton, you will be standing by the penalty spot and when you receive the ball you will put it into the corner of the net. Any questions?"
Shack raised his hand.
"Yes, Mr Shackleton"
" Mr Winterbottom, which side of the net do you want me to put the ball into?'
Yes, that was typical Shack. As a schoolboy I once wrote to Peter Wilson at the time the sports reporter with the Daily Mirror who boasted that he was ‘the reporter they can’t gag’ after a 0-2 England defeat to what was then called Eire. I suggested that the England selectors should look no further than the north-east for their numbers 8,9 and 10 being Len Shackleton, Jackie Milburn and Wilf Mannion. Sounds a bit naive now, but my letter wasn’t published.
To see the Boro-Brentford game free we have to register with something called FA Player. It's a bit of a faff on so I'd advise that Boro fans do it early. I'm not sure how the whole thing works as a financial model but they will be showing a lot of games this week-end, so it's worth taking the trouble to register.
@lenmasterman I suspect that as it is being covered those outside of the UK (coughs quietly) could maybe find a stream on Cricfree.
I understand it is free on the FA Player anyway but it might be less hassle if anyone is experiencing complications in signing in or up.
So a big question for tomorrows game. Will Patrick Roberts get a start?
@malcolm I would very much doubt it unless his plans are to go North of the Border. In which case its a possibility. The Brentford Manager has now tested positive and won't be in the home dug out.
Its looking like Football should now be mothballed for a month to help stop the spread. What these clubs are doing travelling to Dubai is beyond reckless and irresponsible.
I thought my memory was playing tricks on me, but yes I’ve found 4 more examples of players playing for two different clubs on the same day and not recorded by Wikipedia:-
1. Goalkeeper JACK KELSEY and winger DANNY CLAPTON both played full-length matches for both club and country on the 26th November 1958. In the afternoon they both played against England at Villa Park in a 2-2 draw, and in the evening they drove together to Highbury and both played in a 3-1 win for Arsenal against Juventus in a friendly match.
2. MARK HUGHES played for Wales against Czechoslovakia in a 0-2 defeat in a European Championship match in Prague on 11th November 1987. He then flew to Munich after the match to come on as a substitute for Bayern Munich the same night in a winning German Cup Second Round replay against Borussia Monchengladbach.
3. Goalkeeper SCOTT HOWIE played for Scotland’s Under 21 team’s 3-0 win against Malta at Tannadice Park, Dundee in the afternoon of 16th February 1993, and again in the evening in Clyde’s 2-1 home win against Queen of the South in a Division 2 League match.
4. Ryman League club AFC HORNCHURCH facing an end-of-season fixture congestion played two matches on the evening of 1st May 2001. They beat Ware 2-1 at home and drew 2-2 at Clapton although l don’t think any player played in both matches.
And finally another strange fact. On the 15th September 2016 CHRIS BALDERSTONE was batting for Leicestershire and was 51 not out against Derbyshire at Chesterfield at close of play but received permission to drive to Doncaster (a distance of 30 miles) so that he could play football for Rovers against Brentford which finished in a 1-1 draw. He then returned to Chesterfield and continued his innings finishing with 116 runs and then took 3 wickets for 28 runs as Leicestershire won by 135 runs but just missed out on winning their first County Championship title.
Item 3 was new to me, but I well remember the other items although not the dates, nor that Danny Clapton as well as Jack Kelsey was also involved in item 1.
Anyway here is a little poser for you with the FA Cup in mind. Only one football manager has suffered 3 FA Cup defeats with different clubs in the same season and a clue is that it happened as recently as the 2012/13 season. Can anyone name the manager and the 3 clubs he managed? For the record, I didn’t know the answer until today, but it’s a great pub quiz question!
For what it’s worth I think that Bournemouth will finish as Champions with Norwich fighting with Brentford for second place. Swansea should end up in the playoffs, but not sure about Watford, so although I don’t think think Boro will manage top 6, they’re certainly as good as any of the rest of the field. It’s the lack of depth in the squad which concerns me though and the lack of a consistent goalscorer who can score 14/15 goals in total that might deprive us of a top 8 finish or better.
Back when the season started, my prediction was for Norwich to gain automatic promotion, Bournemouth to make the playoffs and Watford to sink like a stone. For a while it looked like Norwich were going to let me down but they seem to have shaken off their relegation hangover. Goes to show what happens when you stick with a good manager.
For the record, I don't think AK is a good manager. I think, like Robbo, he was lucky and well-supported in his first job.
As for us this season, I think we have as much chance of making the playoffs as any team in the top half of the table. We have a decent first team but no depth. I think getting promoted would be a disaster. We possibly have 3-4 players who are good enough for a premier league squad: Watmore, McNair, Fry and maybe Tav can improve enough. If we go up, we come straight back down and I don't think Warnock really has it in him to spend 3 years of his life on promotion, relegation and promotion again.