I think we have to cut Borges a little bit of slack. He’s still very new to the team, the league, the area and the country.
The fact is that we’ve now had about seven different left backs during Carrick’s time and every one of them has looked defensively frail.
To me, that says that it’s a difficult position in the setup and we can see that under Carrick it’s a hybrid left wing / left back role that’s very demanding. Only Giles has made a success of it so far and even then, only in the attacking sense.
I don’t think Carrick is going to change the way we play so it’s about finding the right combinations on the pitch for now.
I’m with OFB on Azaz and have been disappointed with ELL so far - yesterday there were a number of crosses put into the box and he didn’t seem to make any runs to get across his defender. The desire didn’t seem to be there.
I hope McGree is fit to return very soon as we need his intelligence and creativity coming off the left, and I’d like to see Gilbert given a run at no. 10 with Conway - who does look keen - up front.
@andy-r I also posted that, but was remiss in not noting Gilbert was not on the bench yesterday.
Apparently he has injured his knee in training and could be out for awhile.
The misery continues.
@andy-r. “I hope McGree is fit to return very soon as we need his intelligence and creativity coming off the left, and I’d like to see Gilbert given a run at no. 10 with Conway - who does look keen - up front.”
It doesn’t look as if Gilbert will be featuring anytime soon as EG are reporting he twisted his knee in training and could be out for some weeks!
We do seem to have a lot of injuries and take an eternity in getting players back to fitness.
McGree must be fit enough to play as he has been named in the squad for the last three games. I am at a loss to understand why he has not been give some game time to build up his match fitness; at this rate it will be Christmas before he starts.
Unless MC finds the right combinations on the pitch soon, any thoughts of top two will out of reach and even top six in jeopardy.
We still look a poorer team when Howson is absent which does not bode well given his age. 😎
Friend was in Corporate yesterday and he said best thing about the match was the full English before a ball was kicked says it all really.
Carrick’s style of play seems to try to copy the Premiership where the players play much quicker, pass the ball more accurately and have a quicker speed of thought.
Championship players aren’t good enough and what we see is Boro having lots of possession camped in their opponents half with the opposition having 10 players behind the ball waiting for a move to break down for them to catch Boro on the break.
Interestingly Boro were more successful with 2 wingers- Jones and Giles- beating their man and crossing the ball. This is a more productive way to play. I think Doak might be able to do that but not when he receives the ball in a crowded area.But you need 2 wingers and currently Jones is not doing it - is he told to keep possession which is why he passes the ball back too much.
I don’t know where Carrick goes from here as I don’t see a plan B when the current style of play isn’t working.
Philip of Huddersfield 👎☹️☹️
I would say Burnley, Ipswich, Leicester and Southampton have all been promoted playing a similar sort of game.
Fair enough, three of those four had a few Premier League quality players (though not many) but Ipswich also had some League One players.
Though it now feels some time ago, we’ve also seen Boro win a lot of games playing Carrick’s style.
I don’t think the system is necessarily the biggest problem and that tactics are a quick and easy fix.
I think what disappoints me most this season and in part during previous seasons, is that in the majority of cases where we have dropped points it has largely been down to our own inadequacies rather than being beaten by a better team.
All the teams we have played so far to date have not been better sides than us or played better football, they have just found a way to stop us and take points from us.
If Sunderland can be considered a top two side based on yesterday's display then we should be running away with the league if we can get ourselves playing as we can do (Leeds away) but at the moment MC/players can't seem to find a solution.
Things need to change quickly as we are already playing catch up and whilst still not beyond us, we can't leave it much longer to start putting a run of wins together before it is.
I don't think the injury card can be used as an excuse any longer as MC has stated that the squad is now stronger and with good cover in all positions, it's time for them all to stand up and be counted. 😎
Owing to holidays and awkwardly timed games, I've missed the last two matches, so I'm only guided by what I've read and heard on snatches of crackly BBC Tees commentaries, but everything seems to be just as it was before the international break, only worse.
I believe that the majority on here now advocate more width in the system being adopted. Possibly the quoted Giles and Jones previous attacking option of balls generally in from the byline
We now have Jones (admitedly not firing on all cylinders) Doak and Hamilton, all of whom can apparently play on the wing.
However, why would we choose to have three such players that are all right footed?. Surely it would have been a better choice to have brought in a left footed wide player.
Of course you could say Borgzorg is that, but then I think he wants to play in the centre just as does Azaz.
Bizarrely Boro don't seem to have the answers to the questions they pose themselve, after all the packed defences are because of the way Boro play and the fact that the opposition try to stop us almost by confusing us. Oh goodness another packed defence what do we do?
If they manage it they always seem to nick the points based on our record of one mistake a game and that means means we are down by a goal. Somehow the coaching staff need to recognise their shortcomings and perhaps watching how other teams play might help. I simply don't know but at the moment a 0 - 0 draw would be a vast improvement.
Watching Jones he seems scared and toothless, where has the runner gone? Are the players told not to give the ball away at any cost? Certainly windscreen wiper football isn't the solution if you aren't truly challenging the oppositions packed defence.
Where, oh where, have Boro 3 gone?
UTB,
John
I won't vent a lot of depressed, unhappy but hardly surprised, reaction to the Sunderland game. We'll just take that as read. I had hoped the stream/piece or whatever it's called that I Opened would be the start of a good run of successful results for BORO but clearly that was not to be.
One thing we can say for certain is that, whoever is responsible for recent performances and results, it will not be those on this Blog, or those who pay to watch the games, home and/or away or even on TV. So to that extent we can't influence decisions that might contribute to a change in BORO's fortunes. The only people who can do that are all on much higher pay-grades than us.
Let's take look on the brightside shall we?
Just think, we will soon have what is certain to be another excellent opening post to read 🙂
And the scores from the jury in Helsinki are as follows....
Just watched the documentary Mission 2 Burnley, starts with the appointment of Company after sacking Dyche, that season remember they ran away with the league , what I'd forgotten they had a horrendous start to the campaign, and there was rumbles , I'm mad about Saturday,but hoping it's teething problems, and lets be honest,teams are scared to death of us.
@gt? Not scared of us hitting the back of the net, me thinks! 😉😎
While it may have been regarded as a poor start by Burnley under Kompany, they were still 5th and 2 points off the top after 6 games and had 9 points. Though what was interesting about the start of that season is just how close the table was. Boro and Luton were both 3 points behind Burnley after 6 games but in places 19th and 20th - though both clubs ended up finishing the season in 3rd and 4th places.
Wilder was sacked after 12 games with Boro looking over their shoulders at relegation and Leo was put in temporary charge but after 15 games were only out of the bottom 3 on goal difference - Carrick came in and transformed the season and nearly even made the automatic promotion spot before falling away slightly.
I suppose the other thing about that season is that Boro ended up some great attacking players in Akpom, Archer and Ramsey - plus the emergence of the Hackney-Howson midfield as well as an in-form McGree and Giles. Hard to see at the moment any of the new arrivals being of that standard and we're still struggling to see Hackney, Howson and McGree being fit and on top form.
Unfortunately, such average starts by nearly all the clubs in the Championship is rare and this season has seen the top six only lose 3 games between them so Boro need to start winning games sooner rather than later if they're to avoid getting left behind.
Carrick says he's not planning to change his tactics and system as he believes in it but you have to wonder if he really believes that he has the same quality of players that he had back then when the team was functioning so well and scoring goals for fun.
I think the way we are playing now ,is totally different to when Carrick came in, and infact he failed in the play offs, last season very disappointing,going backwards , this season so far boring, and predictable,infact I don't think they are fit, or lazy, nobody is making runs to get open, tracking back only Morris,
Ok the new thinking is less loaners more permanent, fine if they make us better, every team that's gone up lately have acquired classy loaners, every draw or loss just pegs you back , and now your playing catch up.i know it's early, but form is form,
We are told Gibson is still ambitious and wants promotion, so do many other clubs, lm just seeing some old issues, I don't like
COB
Now I'm going to be controversial ,the reason for this ,is I want a team that doesn't struggle,they are far better
Everyone loves Clarke ,he's nothing more than a journeyman EFL player ,infact when RVB comes back he's the one to be dropped, Ailing tryer , but today's game you need real speed, I don't think the goalie is top class, I saw a LB playing for Birmingham last week Cochran signed from Hearts for less than 1m, better than ours
If your going to play Tippy Tappy football, what's the point in Berdzhog, Latte, Conroy, none of them want the ball ,when facing the other way, they all want the ball facing the goal played through to them running towards the net, I just see some unusual team selections and tactics , i hope im very wrong ,
@gt - I am not a convert to tippy-tappy football, of keep-possession-at-all-costs football. I don't take the view that Pep Guardiola is a prophet and that everyone will be playing football in 20 years time just as Man city plays now. Things move on. New styles come into fashion and other managers & teams start to play those new "successful" styles. To think otherwise would be to believe that we have just arrived at the peak of perfect football development and that football evolution has now ended. Lucky us to be here now!
Man City can play that way because, generally speaking, they have the best players. Every player they have in every position is better than their opponents at Nottingham Forest, Newcastle United and at Crystal Palace in the Premier League, let alone better than their equivalent players at Middlesbrough. It is more of a contest, and not one that City could guarantee winning, against Bayern Munich and Real Madrid.
Boro, with the players currently in the squad, playing "that sort" of football in The Championship is unlikely (I don't say impossible) to meet with end of season success. The players are not good enough to do it without a massive slice of luck and/or an injection of quality players on loan.
I am trying to be objective here. Obviously I support Boro and my heart sometimes causes me to suggest better prospective results from future games than actually turns out to be the case when those games are played. After all, I have put Boro down to finish 2nd in the Championship this season, behind Burnley in the COTY Challenge! At the moment I wouldn't put my house on it. Actually I wouldn't put Michael Carrick's house on it - I'd hate him to become homeless!
Maybe better to play to strengths. Maybe if the management looked realistically at the playing staff and, until it is improved, work out how to get the BEST out of those players we have. What can they do best if they are a little short of the Messi and Iniesta skills? Maybe we'd be better if we tried to make it difficult for other teams to get in "our" 25 yards of the field and, if they do, we should be trying to belt that ball upfield so our goal is no longer in danger. Clearly our having the majority of possession isn't working in terms of beating most of our opponents. Maybe, then, retaining possession should not be the team's apparent main aim.
@forever-dormo I think that just sums up where Boro are right now.
We cannot even beat the teams that are below us. Remember last season, especially Rotherham. OK, some will point to Leicester, but I think we dropped more points than won points in the betting basis.
GT is also correct, in that LL, Conway, Borgzorg, et al prefer the ball in front of them when played in.
Unfortunately, it appears like “Maggie”, this man is not for turning. He only used a “plan B” a couple of time last season, successfully may I say. However I think he would fall on the proverbial sword rather than change.
Eventually, if results don’t change and we are not in the top six, which must be the least expectation from those at the top, well that sword may be used by Mr Gibson.
Let’s hope that MC can produce that little bit of magic to produce the points we need right now.
As Vincent Kompany has been mentioned above, I think his example is interesting for someone like Michael Carrick.
Kompany, of course, got Burnley promoted with ease albeit with a good squad for Championship level.
In the Premier League, they added a number of players but lost game after game, never once changing the playing style. They were relegated as comfortably as they’d been promoted.
Kompany, however, ended up with a plum job at Bayern Munich!
It was a surprise appointment anyway and no doubt not their first choice, but would VK have been anywhere near the conversation if he’d gone all pragmatic or direct with his play in a bid to keep Burnley up?
Is this the model for younger coaches now? Play to your principles come what may because f you want the bigger jobs in future you have to play a certain way?
Just an observation. Not a criticism as personally I like what we’re trying to do and just want us to do it better. I also think we’re capable.
I have to say Kompany in the doc mission 2 Burnley came across as an intelligent and inspirational leader, it wouldn't have hurt is profile,The clubs in the premiership have had years to build their teams, it's different today than we were a fixture for eleven seasons, £20m reserve players.
Interesting view Andy and perhaps ambitious young managers are keen to protect their profile as coaches of a certain style that they no doubt are aware is what the top clubs are profiling for future appointments.
Of course it helps if you win plenty of games and finish high up the league but if you fail it wasn't your fault that your players weren't as good as what the other teams had. I suppose for clubs who expect to have the best players then choosing a coach that plays a style they understand and is perhaps a good man-manager too who has played at a top club will tick all the boxes.
The question for non-top clubs is whether their man can deliver by sticking to a style that doesn't seemingly get the best out of the players he has to work with - though what choice do clubs have as either they believe in their manager or they don't.
You're right to say Kompany wasn't first choice - sounded like he was probably only 5th or 6th from the names who were lined up but either turned Bayern down or didn't pass the interview - Ralph Rangnick, Julian Nagelsmann, Roberto Di Zerbi and Thomas Frank were all ahead of Kompany on their shortlist.
Carrick has shown with players like Akpom and Rogers that he can get the best out of good technical players but maybe has problems with players who are limited in ability or perhaps lack footballing intelligence - which is usually not attributes you'd find with players at top clubs.
So maybe Boro's problems lie with not having good enough quality players available to play - though the ability to tactically affect a game is something that Carrick has appeared to have not mastered as he prefers to stick with the plan and hope something will eventually happen.
I actually think we do have good enough players to get results in the way Carrick wants to play. I still feel that it's a matter of time. Whether it will come soon enough to be meaningful is another question.
At the moment, I just think too many players are off colour rather than there being a major flaw in our approach.
As I see it, the plan is for ELL to occupy the centre-backs and run in behind, Conway to link and make late runs into the box, Jones to get round the back and pull crosses/passes back from the byline, Borges to push forward and get crosses in from the left, and Azaz and Hackney to supply the bullets from central areas.
Unfortunately, Borges and Conway are still settling and adapting whilst Jones, Azaz, Hackney and ELL are all out of form at the same time.
It seems at the moment we have a plethora of players whose ideal position is in the number ten role and appear to be less effective in any other position - all playing behind a misfiring striker waiting for ammunition from out-of-form wide players struggling to be fed by midfield players who have lost the ability to pass the ball. Meanwhile, the high intensity game plan has been caught out against the low block and has resorted to slow side-to-side possession probing that waits for a gap that rarely arrives and has nullified the pace of the forwards who instead stand pretty static waiting for a pass.
This will only change if Carrick can get his wide players to beat their man and get behind the defence and have forwards making runs into the box to get on the end of crosses. At the moment Hamilton doesn't look comfortable on the left as a right-footed player and Azaz has been moved there to accommodate Conway in the centre but looks equally ineffective - I think Borges has managed one cross so far and on that occasion there was no striker in the box.
Might be worth playing Jones on the left as at least he can cut inside and get into the box with Doak on the right - maybe even starting Dijksteel at right-back as at least he looked in form when he has played. Other than that, there is a lot to sort out before the team has the balance it needs to function.
I suppose if I knew what the problem was, and what the solution is, I'd be getting a message from Steve Gibson to pop along for a glass of wine and a little chat. (Actually that did happen, sort of, some years ago when Anthony Vickers was asked by SG to get a little group of us to go along to the stadium to meet him and Mr Bauser at the Directors' Lounge, to talk through some issues and raise any queries we had, but that's not what I meant! I think at that time SG was aware of an undercurrent of discontent amongst some supporters and felt that by making himself available to us, he could let us know SOME of the constraints the club was facing at that time, and that we might go out there - on social media, to our friends or whatever - to spread the word that all was not doom & gloom and that some rumours being spread out there were untrue).
The reality is that most of us out in the non-football Real World don't know what the problems are on the inside, let alone the solutions. For all we know Players A, B, C and D have long term illness or fitness conditions that pre-dispose them to injury or make it impossible for them to play a lengthy series of games before they break down again and then have to start an even lengthier programme of rebuilding than they tried last time. There might be genuine concerns that for a couple of those players things look very bleak indeed, but that those are not worries for public consumption. For all we know, Players E and F have family problems that prevent their being able to put all their concentration into their training and the game. For all we know Players G and H have mental health issues that go beyond the common self-doubt many of us might have felt during our working lives but which saps their confidence or ability to fulfil the roles they were bought to fill. For all we know, it may just be that Players I, J, K, L and M are all, unfortunately "off form" at the same time for no apparent reason but, equally, if there is no reason or explanation for it how does one find the remedy? For all we know, it may be a combination of factors for Players N, O, P, Q, R, S, T and U - a couple may have been bought as "improvers" but have not done so and the coaching staff no longer believes their improvement is likely, a couple may have "peaked too soon" in their careers and are now unable to do what they could do a year or two ago and therefore are able to make less of a contribution than previously, one or two might not like the Boss or have issues with another player(s) in the squad.
Who knows? If being "off form" is a mercurial thing, something with no real explanation, then you might expect 4 or 5 in the squad to be off form, but equally that another 4 or 5 to be "flying" at the same time and another maybe larger group to be just performing at or near the expected level rather than being good or bad. It must be very unilkely you'd have an entire team of players "off form" at the same time without a real problem existing somewhere. Does the coaching staff have an explanation for performances and more importantly results that have been less than had been hoped for or expected? If they don't have an explanation then it is unlikely that, barring suddenly becoming very lucky, the coaching staff will be able to do anything about it. I'm not talking here about an "explanation" that might be given to a reporter immediately after the game in a reaction interview, or even one that might be given mid-week when there has been time to process what happened in the previous game. The problem with any explanation given in those Press interviews is the need to keep confidences ("I know about Player V's serious health issues but it's not right to air that here"), but also the need to keep players "onside" by avoiding overt criticism and to keep The Board onside by not being critical of the resources being made available for selection. There is a need to say enough to allow the supporters to have some hope for the future but without going overboard with expectations after a few good results whilst trying to reduce anxiety after a few bad ones.
The important conversations are the ones that may well be happening, or should be happening, very regularly. Players to medical staff about how the exercises are going, how the muscles or the joints are reacting to the treatment being provided, or even the exercises done by players who ARE fit rather than injured. Medical to coaching staff about how the players' recoveries from their respective injuries or tweaks here and there are progressing: as expected, too slowly or do we need to look again at the injury and the treatment plan? Coaching staff to the Manager - if our players aren't fit enough, what do we need to do to resolve that; if we are getting a run of a particular type of injury or muscle pull are we doing something in training that contributes to that, if we are conceding a lot of goals in a particular manner, what exercises can we put together to make the players more able to combat that, what do you think of our line-up or tactics - do you have any suggestions? The Manager reporting to the Chairman - no need for the level of diplomacy needed as per Press interviews here, but frankness would be expected. Nowhere to hide in that discussion. "We bought Player W for £X million, is he contributing what you thought he would?" "If we keep on having the majority of possession but a minority of goals scored whilst conceding more, what are you going to do about that?" "What is your plan if this continues for the next 6 games - surely you can't expect anything to change unless you DO something - where would that leave us?" "Where do you see this team, these players, next May?" "What needs to change to get where I want the club to be next May?"
I don't know whether coaching staff or managers have the answers, or even if they know the questions. I know I don't. I guess some just try to "blag it". Some of them will succeed for a while and others will fail, but will try the trick with another club. Maybe SOME managers and coaches do and maybe they are the minority, the Special Ones that we look towards with awe. The Bill Shanklys, Brian Cloughs, Herbert Chapmans, Alex Fergusons, Jose Mourinhos, Klopps, Pep Guardiolas, Carlo Ancelottis. But most of them started out with good teams in big clubs (first two in my list excepted) and not all succeed everywhere in all clubs (Forest were relegated at the end of Clough's tenure and he hardly got tyhe opportunity to get through the door at Leeds; Mourinho won nothing and didn't last long at Spurs, for example). Maybe the thing the successful managers have is an ablility in player-management in spades. An ability to make Player X think he is the best in that position, that the manager can further improve him as a player and that, most of all, the manager really believes in him. And, of course, a decent dollop of good luck that seems to justify the manager's confidence. But I still think most of them try to blag it.
@werdermouth. Possibly, the thought was, that following what appeared to be a decent finish the the end of last season, if we upgraded a number of players and positions, then we could continue that momentum into this season?
However, it became obvious during last season, that teams could sometimes nullify our system, plus we were not generally scoring sufficient goals to counter the odd self delivered mistake.
Then when we started this season, with what we all agreed was a bonus fixture list, we now know that the opposition coaches, had the answer to the question. How to stop the Boro scoring.
Of course, it could be any part of Dormo's well delivered essay. But, we can only judge by what we see on the pitch.
To believe that a large number of players are off form at the same time, is for me, a step too far. I accept that we have new players bedding in, but most of the teams do. WVA and Sunderland brought in a fair number I believe
Injuries probably have not helped, but that is more at the back than the front.
No, the answer that has probably the best chance of succeeding, is the one werder alluded to and I suggested in a recent post.
Round pegs in round holes. Wide players that can beat the opposition FB by speed or pass and go. The right has a number of options with right footed players.
The left is more problematic. We have no real wide left player, unless you want to try Borgzorg. Of course he would have to be disciplined sufficiently for the team and not drift inside clogging up the box.
If Carrick does not try something different, however small, then I really believe nothing will change. Of course I could be totally wrong. May be Saturday?
...(Actually that did happen, sort of, some years ago when Anthony Vickers was asked by SG to get a little group of us to go along to the stadium to meet him and Mr Bauser at the Directors' Lounge...
I was there too, FD. I think Werder as well...?